It has been a long off season for all of us I believe. And the DJ debate was & is bonkers. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, haven't been on here for a while so just sharing my 2 cents.
My view has always been to support our team and the players until it becomes obvious that it is time to move on, when you put things into context.
To me the way people in general are treating DJ reminds me of how Eli had it before the SB, during the SB wins and after the SB wins. It always seemed to be an approximate 50/50 love/hate relationship.
Right now I believe this team is better than what we had 2 years ago and pretty much same FO, head coach and generally the coaching staff. Something we didn't see on this team for a great number of years.
If our Oline plays at least average and our WRs (besides Nabers) can have an impact with Hyatt in year two and Robinson having a full year + to recover then I believe this team can be much improved. Then add in the improved pass rush, LBS and yes we do have weakness in some areas.
Yet I feel if all of the above is average to solid, or even a bit up and down throughout the season/game, then this is the time to know if DJ is for real or not. If he plays well, then we have our future QB, if not, then it's time to find a qb or use him as a gap placement for a new QB but till then I will support him.
Also I had no issues with the Giants trying to potentially land a QB for a trade, because if you can find a gem (not saying DJ cannot become that) but it is a way to hedge your bet, and you can always trade one of the qb for picks down the road. Yet another major reason why I had no issue with it, is DJs injury issues which did make sense to have another potential top tier qb in here, if it became a worse case scenario.
Again, just my 2 cents. And lets go Giants, hopefully they can give us another great surprise year as they did two years ago. :Giants: :flag: :Giants:
No choice but to support him. Otherwise it's hoping the Giants lose. You're right though, this is his last chance.
Quote from: DragonSoul on September 05, 2024, 10:15:11 PMIt has been a long off season for all of us I believe. And the DJ debate was & is bonkers. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, haven't been on here for a while so just sharing my 2 cents.
My view has always been to support our team and the players until it becomes obvious that it is time to move on, when you put things into context.
To me the way people in general are treating DJ reminds me of how Eli had it before the SB, during the SB wins and after the SB wins. It always seemed to be an approximate 50/50 love/hate relationship.
Right now I believe this team is better than what we had 2 years ago and pretty much same FO, head coach and generally the coaching staff. Something we didn't see on this team for a great number of years.
If our Oline plays at least average and our WRs (besides Nabers) can have an impact with Hyatt in year two and Robinson having a full year + to recover then I believe this team can be much improved. Then add in the improved pass rush, LBS and yes we do have weakness in some areas.
Yet I feel if all of the above is average to solid, or even a bit up and down throughout the season/game, then this is the time to know if DJ is for real or not. If he plays well, then we have our future QB, if not, then it's time to find a qb or use him as a gap placement for a new QB but till then I will support him.
Also I had no issues with the Giants trying to potentially land a QB for a trade, because if you can find a gem (not saying DJ cannot become that) but it is a way to hedge your bet, and you can always trade one of the qb for picks down the road. Yet another major reason why I had no issue with it, is DJs injury issues which did make sense to have another potential top tier qb in here, if it became a worse case scenario.
Again, just my 2 cents. And lets go Giants, hopefully they can give us another great surprise year as they did two years ago. :Giants: :flag: :Giants:
Thanks for sharing that well thought out post. I agree; DJ seems to finally have a proper NFL QB support system. This is his time to sink or swim. Like you, I also believe in supporting the players on our team.
I generally agree. I'm not sure that any members of this board want the Giants to lose though.
So I'm unsure where this idea has spawned.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 06, 2024, 10:16:57 AMI generally agree. I'm not sure that any members of this board want the Giants to lose though.
So I'm unsure where this idea has spawned.
There seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
You are entirely right, HT.
I do find it interesting that there needs to be this divide, especially when it's pushed by only one side of the argument. I also think it's about strengthening future viewpoints e.g. "well, I said X player could succeed but he didn't have the support of the fanbase" instead of merely offering - "yeah, I had that one wrong".
It's seemingly like viewpoints on an inconsequential message board hardens the resolve to be "right". I think it's where the "pseudo-intellectual" (as someone termed it last week) spawns from.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. But one or another, I'm happy to see the end of this conflict on this board come the Spring.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
Very well-articulated, H; however, I have to remind myself posters who fit this description are a very small, VERY vocal minority.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
Curious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones? This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones. Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?
I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right. To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.
@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner. You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
Quotein this sect's collective mind
It's generally not considerate to call people who have a different opinion than yours a sect. We haven't done that to you so please do not do that to us.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 06, 2024, 11:21:55 AMIt's generally not considerate to call people who have a different opinion than yours a sect. We haven't done that to you so please do not do that to us.
We/Us? I'm curious, who represents "we" and "us"? Your choice to use those pronouns indicates you feel comfortable to speak for others and/or have aligned to specific affiliation/group; thus, giving credence to H-town's post. BTW, when not explicitly tied to religion/politics, the term sect is not a pejorative. It simply means "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or leader." You clearly see yourself as part of a group, hence the pronouns "we" and "us." So, it appears the term sect is appropriate in this context...
To the OP - it was a well-articulated post; although, I fundamentally disagree that a professional NFL team needs 6 years and 77 games to determine the capabilities of their starting QB. Nevertheless, you're correct in this is his last chance...your post was very well done, sir.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:20:25 AMCurious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones? This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones. Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?
I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right. To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.
@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner. You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.
You can feign moral superiority on this point, but the record of my comments is available to all and will prove you wrong. As you have done many times in the past, you misconstrue my comments (willingly or not). It's such a common thing I referenced it in my prior post (which you improperly label an "attack"):
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMIt becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue.
Much like I expressed in that post, it's not worth my time to unbundle all the inaccuracies.
My point, regardless of your twisting, was that there should be no distinguishing--implicitly or explicitly--"Good" Giants fans from "Bad" Giants fans, whatever their opinions may be because its ultimately unconstructive. Call that an "attack" if you will--it says more about you than me.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 11:47:15 AMYou can feign moral superiority on this point, but the record of my comments is available to all and will prove you wrong
This is from just a few days ago:
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?
It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.
What you are trying to do is not uncommon, and there is even an acronym for it
DARVO (an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. You attack others who don't share your view, while feigning being the victim.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:52:01 AMThis is from just two days ago:
What you are trying to do is not uncommon, and there is even an acronym for it
DARVO (an acronym for "deny, attack, and reverse victim & offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. You attack others who don't share your view, while feigning being the victim.
And I could provide you a definition of "projection" and "transference," but it would hardly get us anywhere. If you must get the last word, go ahead. I'm bowing out.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 11:55:33 AMAnd I could provide you a definition of "projection" and "transference," but it would hardly get us anywhere. If you must get the last word, go ahead. I'm bowing out.
If this means you will stop attacking other forum members for not sharing your opinions, then good, great even =D>
Thank you
My first thought, "oh crap...another DJ thread". But it was so well stated that I was pleasantly surprised. Thanks for that well-thought-out and articulated post, Dragon Soul!
I just spent half the morning (on and off) listening to a podcast with three of my favorite athletes in the sports world: Eli, Jalen Brunson, and Josh Hart. Listening to Eli explain what it took to get where he was...even wondering if was going to have a 4-year career instead of a 16-year career after the wheels were falling off the team in 2007, when all he seemed to be able to do was throw interceptions
Regardless, the ups and downs, great games vs. ugly games, the trials and tribulations of a QB with high expectations is the life of a QB. I couldn't help but think of DJ when going through this similar scenario. What I learned more than anything, is the mindset of the QB and the expectations piled on him. I think the mental part is probably more difficult than the physical...especially in New York, where the only reward from the media is "hero or chump". It's a tough world to play in New York
Anyway, Brunson is a huge Eagles' fan, Hart is a die-hard Commanders' fan, so it was a terrific podcast to hear different views from three great athletes who star in New York. If you have the time (or can just play it in the background while doing what else you have to do), I think you'll enjoy it. Eli can be a real comedian, but in this podcast, he stays mostly serious and explains a lot of details about QB that the typical fan doesn't understand
We go as far as DJ takes us. It is not unreasonable to doubt his ability to carry the load but it does seem odd not to sincerely hope he proves us wrong. Him succeeding would be the quickest and least disruptive path to being competitive. Unlikely? Probably. Desirable? Definitely.
If DJ fails there is no guarantee that whoever we draft or sign or trade for next year will do better than DJ in our environment. There is a tendency to assume a new QB will fix us but we, like most of the NFL, have more QB misses than hits on our resume. Hope is intoxicating but often ephemeral.
Quote from: DragonSoul on September 05, 2024, 10:15:11 PMIt has been a long off season for all of us I believe. And the DJ debate was & is bonkers. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse, haven't been on here for a while so just sharing my 2 cents.
My view has always been to support our team and the players until it becomes obvious that it is time to move on, when you put things into context.
To me the way people in general are treating DJ reminds me of how Eli had it before the SB, during the SB wins and after the SB wins. It always seemed to be an approximate 50/50 love/hate relationship.
Right now I believe this team is better than what we had 2 years ago and pretty much same FO, head coach and generally the coaching staff. Something we didn't see on this team for a great number of years.
If our Oline plays at least average and our WRs (besides Nabers) can have an impact with Hyatt in year two and Robinson having a full year + to recover then I believe this team can be much improved. Then add in the improved pass rush, LBS and yes we do have weakness in some areas.
Yet I feel if all of the above is average to solid, or even a bit up and down throughout the season/game, then this is the time to know if DJ is for real or not. If he plays well, then we have our future QB, if not, then it's time to find a qb or use him as a gap placement for a new QB but till then I will support him.
Also I had no issues with the Giants trying to potentially land a QB for a trade, because if you can find a gem (not saying DJ cannot become that) but it is a way to hedge your bet, and you can always trade one of the qb for picks down the road. Yet another major reason why I had no issue with it, is DJs injury issues which did make sense to have another potential top tier qb in here, if it became a worse case scenario.
Again, just my 2 cents. And lets go Giants, hopefully they can give us another great surprise year as they did two years ago. :Giants: :flag: :Giants:
For a reference point the 2022 team maxed out their ability except for an extremely poorly coached OL that they had to scheme around. Now that squad even with a better coached OL wasn't going to beat the Eagles (or some other stronger playoff teams) but it was most definitely a fun team to watch.
One can argue this team is a more talented team at almost every unit than 2022. If in fact, they max their abilities (including the offense line under who should be a much better coach in Brillo Pad) they should be a much more fun team to watch which at minimum should beat the weaker and/or mediocre teams on their schedule.
That's a minimum baseline that I think is fair to expect. A bit more than that is in the realm of possibility but I don't want to go there without seeing how we look 1st few games before so very arrogantly raising the bar :laugh:
Quote from: kingm56 on September 06, 2024, 11:33:09 AMWe/Us? I'm curious, who represents "we" and "us"? Your choice to use those pronouns indicates you feel comfortable to speak for others and/or have aligned to specific affiliation/group; thus, giving credence to H-town's post. BTW, when not explicitly tied to religion/politics, the term sect is not a pejorative. It simply means "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or leader." You clearly see yourself as part of a group, hence the pronouns "we" and "us." So, it appears the term sect is appropriate in this context...
To the OP - it was a well-articulated post; although, I fundamentally disagree that a professional NFL team needs 6 years and 77 games to determine the capabilities of their starting QB. Nevertheless, you're correct in this is his last chance...your post was very well done, sir.
Maybe you missed it but the post prior to mine, Mighty when addressing H Town specifically said not to be demonizing "people" and attacking other "members."
Notice, Mighty used (plural forms) meaning more than one, which would include the "we and us".
Furthermore, this was a comment of yours from a week ago, September 2nd, about (notice) "people" who defend Daniel Jones.
"""The track record of those three of four individuals inserting intellectual superiority (as it relates to football) have been lackluster."""
Finally, to call others a "sect", and to defend that position because they have a different opinion than yours is uncalled for.
It goes against the guidelines and rules to be able to post here, and shouldn't be tolerated, as Mighty succinctly pointed out.
You will in fact notice, that those of us who defend Daniel Jones and want to see him succeed will not call others who have a different opinion than ours a sect.
I would encourage you to do the same.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 06, 2024, 02:04:27 PMMaybe you missed it but the post prior to mine, Mighty when addressing H Town specifically said not to be demonizing "people" and attacking other "members."
Notice, Mighty used (plural forms) meaning more than one, which would include the "we and us".
Furthermore, this was a comment of yours from a week ago, September 2nd, about (notice) "people" who defend Daniel Jones.
"""The track record of those three of four individuals inserting intellectual superiority (as it relates to football) have been lackluster."""
Finally, to call others a "sect", and to defend that position because they have a different opinion than yours is uncalled for.
It goes against the guidelines and rules to be able to post here, and shouldn't be tolerated, as Mighty succinctly pointed out.
You will in fact notice, that those of us who defend Daniel Jones and want to see him succeed will not call others who have a different opinion than ours a sect.
I would encourage you to do the same.
Considering I was the one who used the word you're hung up on, I'll briefly respond: you're putting form (significantly) over substance. You can replace that term with whatever word you want to describe a group of people who believe similarly and offends you less--you'll find my point doesn't change. And I understand if you disagree with it and that's fine.
I prefer to enter a season with hope not disdain. In any event I think they have made enough moves to give DJ a proper support system. I am willing to see what he can do with it before jumping ship.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 06, 2024, 02:04:27 PMMaybe you missed it but the post prior to mine, Mighty when addressing H Town specifically said not to be demonizing "people" and attacking other "members."
Notice, Mighty used (plural forms) meaning more than one, which would include the "we and us".
Furthermore, this was a comment of yours from a week ago, September 2nd, about (notice) "people" who defend Daniel Jones.
"""The track record of those three of four individuals inserting intellectual superiority (as it relates to football) have been lackluster."""
Finally, to call others a "sect", and to defend that position because they have a different opinion than yours is uncalled for.
It goes against the guidelines and rules to be able to post here, and shouldn't be tolerated, as Mighty succinctly pointed out.
You will in fact notice, that those of us who defend Daniel Jones and want to see him succeed will not call others who have a different opinion than ours a sect.
I would encourage you to do the same.
You entirely missed the point; in this context, sect is not a pejorative. I gave you the literal definition. Your own words imply you fit said definition, which again is not Demeaning; thus, your attempt to occupy the moral high-ground is misplaced.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 06, 2024, 02:58:37 PMYou entirely missed the point; in this context, sect is not a pejorative. I gave you the literal definition. Your own words imply you fit said definition, which again is not Demeaning; thus, your attempt to occupy the moral high-ground is misplaced.
I asked Chat GTP if the use of "sect" is pejorative or not:
QuoteWhether calling someone part of a "sect" is pejorative depends on context, tone, and cultural factors. Here's a breakdown:
Neutral Usage: In its neutral form, the word "sect" refers to a subgroup within a larger religious, political, or philosophical system, often characterized by distinct beliefs or practices. Historically, the term has been used in academic or theological discussions to describe smaller branches of major religions (e.g., Christian sects).
Pejorative Usage: The term can take on a negative connotation when it implies that the group is extreme, radical, or fringe. This pejorative usage may suggest cult-like behavior, intolerance, or divisiveness, implying that the group is outside societal norms or engages in questionable practices.
Cultural Sensitivity: In some regions or cultures, calling a group a "sect" may automatically carry negative implications, as it could suggest a breakaway group from a mainstream or accepted tradition. This can be especially true in countries where "sect" is associated with radicalism or social disruption.
In conclusion, while the term "sect" itself isn't inherently pejorative, it can be perceived that way depending on how it is used. Tone, context, and cultural perceptions play key roles in determining whether it's taken offensively.
When you combine H-Town's overall negative commentary, context in the thread, and the fact that there is no religious or political group (or philosophical system), it seems more than reasonable to say the use of "sect" was and was intended to be a pejorative.
Again, as with H-Town, you are displaying a pattern. When H-Town attacks the fans he doesn't agree with, you chime in on how great his comments are and then often throw in your own personal attacks directed at your fellow fans with whom you don't agree.
Can we start this season off on a positive note and not fall back into this sort of behavior? Both you and H-Town are long-time members who should set a good example and bring value with quality posts. You should be posting about Giants football, not trying to insult fans you don't agree with
Please stop trying to drag me back into this. Practice what you preach.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 03:16:23 PMPlease stop trying to drag me back into this. Practice what you preach.
Hear, hear.
All this for Daniel Jones. Thank goodness we are less than 48 hours away from the start of either a new found love affair with a NY underdog makes good....or the beginning of the end of his tenure.
Time will tell. Good luck Daniel we are rooting for u
@H-Town G-Fan and
@EDjohnst1981 H-town, you were only mentioned because
@kingm56 was attempting to gaslight over the insult you hurled.
Do you guys really need to drag down every single threat that discusses our starting QB? Can't we just let DJ play and see how he does? Wouldn't it be better if you talked about Giants football instead of just bashing people you perceive as Daniel Jones sect members?
As a side note, I don't enjoy you guys bashing me. I work too hard, and I deserve to be treated with respect both for my actions/words and as the owner (who spends all his own money) of the site. It's disgraceful how you treat me. I try to treat everyone here well, and you three crap all over me every chance you get.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 04:02:27 PM@H-Town G-Fan and @EDjohnst1981
H-town, you were only mentioned because @kingm56 was attempting to gaslight over the insult you hurled.
Do you guys really need to drag down every single threat that discusses our starting QB? Can't we just let DJ play and see how he does? Wouldn't it be better if you talked about Giants football instead of just bashing people you perceive as Daniel Jones sect members?
As a side note, I don't enjoy you guys bashing me. I work too hard, and I deserve to be treated with respect both for my actions/words and as the owner (who spends all his own money) of the site. It's disgraceful how you treat me. I try to treat everyone here well, and you three crap all over me every chance you get.
I'm sorry you feel like that,
@MightyGiants but I don't crap on you every chance I get - that's very misleading. There are weekly posts where I engage with you and thank you/like your efforts - this week see my post on the Leonard article and today on the cutting on Carter.
We are diametrically opposed in our view on Jones but hand on my heart, I don't think I'm disrespectful to you personally. I'm just steadfast in my views of Jones, I want him to succeed and I want the Giants to win.
You talk of respect but it's a two way street, I went to lengths to offer evidence to support my opinion in a thread this week. You explicitly said you couldn't be bothered to read it because you are "stats fatigued" or words to that affect - which is your right but it's hardly respectful.
Again, and for absolute clarity - I appreciate what you provide for this community. I read almost all the posts you start.
If you feel my behaviour is crapping on you or singling you out. Please report me and take I'll take any sanctions. I've been a member of this community for a very long time, to my knowledge nobody had reported me.
Reset... let's just make a point and not overstate it. And don't mock other's positions. Don't attempt to shut down conversation and make it about your own side. It's nobody's job here to control the content. The Moderators will remove the trolls and if you've been here long enough, you've seen it.
We don't have to agree, but remember that we're all on the same team.
Enjoy the season.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 06, 2024, 10:16:57 AMI generally agree. I'm not sure that any members of this board want the Giants to lose though.
So I'm unsure where this idea has spawned.
I was talking about me in general, as people rooting against DJ and those who rooted for us to lose last year at the end to get a better draft spot.
Essentially, if everything is about average this is it for DJ. It either makes him or breaks him at least as a Giants QB for the future.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 06, 2024, 10:45:30 AMThere seems to be a need from some to define "Good" Giants fans versus "Bad" Giants fans (whether they're actively aware they're making such a distinction or not). "Bad" Giants fans include those levying any sort of criticism against Daniel Jones, presumably because in this sect's collective mind anyone offering that criticism wants the Giants to fail (somehow, someway, however reductive and incorrect it may be). In this way, one can simply dismiss the opinions of "Bad" Giants fans without engaging critically with them. Perplexingly, however, slandering other players (Evan Neal, for example, or the departed Evan Engram) doesn't seemingly disqualify one from "Good" Giants fan status or make one a "Bad" fan, nor are there people starting threads about how Neal should get 6 years to prove he's an NFL starter.
Everyone has a right to their opinion. Hopefully with facts and things put into context. Constructive criticism is always welcomed.I will be the first to say DJ had a rough year whether you want to reason it, use context or another barometer.
Then there are certain positions that are different than others. Neal I have given plenty of time and still hold out a slight hope for due to injuries (context) but a lot is left to be desired. While Neal generally has to rely on himself and his RG doing their job with some leakage from other spots, you can see that there is a problem. With a QB I believe you can agree it can be the system, coaching, the oline, was, play calling and so forth. But it also lands on the QB shoulders when it is obvious. As it was when he was rushing throwing the ball away at time, because he was getting nailed so fast, so the few times he had protection his inner clock was off the charts.
But he did have a bad year no matter if you want to put it into context or not. But he also had good years with bad talent around him. Neal hasn't shown much, besides blocking air at times. I hope he's healed up and can show up. Because I wasn't gonna be surprised if they let him go before the season started with cuts, but they see something in him still I guess, so I have to support the coaches and hope Neal breaks out. If not he can easily be gone after this season just like DJ.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:20:25 AMCurious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones? This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones. Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?
I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right. To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.
@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner. You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.
Thank you for the support. People have a right to their opinions, that is the reason for this forum, is to share our views. The old official GMB was full of trolls trying to get a reaction out of posters (that's when you ignored them) Doesn't bother me any, been online for decades and know trolls (not calling anyone one here) before people even knew what trolls were.
If I see/feel a troll I simply ignore or block. Those are very obvious over times. But haven't really been here too much after the end of last season was over, so I know things can change and hold judgement as the season goes on.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 06, 2024, 11:33:09 AMWe/Us? I'm curious, who represents "we" and "us"? Your choice to use those pronouns indicates you feel comfortable to speak for others and/or have aligned to specific affiliation/group; thus, giving credence to H-town's post. BTW, when not explicitly tied to religion/politics, the term sect is not a pejorative. It simply means "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or leader." You clearly see yourself as part of a group, hence the pronouns "we" and "us." So, it appears the term sect is appropriate in this context...
To the OP - it was a well-articulated post; although, I fundamentally disagree that a professional NFL team needs 6 years and 77 games to determine the capabilities of their starting QB. Nevertheless, you're correct in this is his last chance...your post was very well done, sir.
Thanks, but not sure you saw the comparison in numbers between Trevor Lawrence and DJ, pretty much identical, yet perception becomes reality as it did with Eli. And generally I agree (besides outliers) it shouldn't take going into his 6th year to know, but when in context as some of the issues mention in my initial post, then it can be understandable. Trust me I want a healthy top tier QB so we can enjoy winning again. Even the top qbs can't work behind a ranked 31-32 oline. It actually be interesting to know how well teams that had those ranked lines faired in their season as a light comparison.
I was around with Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell. I gave them all some, but as you could see somewhat quickly, that they didn't have it at a certain point. Yet when Collins came over I felt we finally had a chance and he got us to the SB.
Quote from: londonblue on September 06, 2024, 12:51:52 PMWe go as far as DJ takes us. It is not unreasonable to doubt his ability to carry the load but it does seem odd not to sincerely hope he proves us wrong. Him succeeding would be the quickest and least disruptive path to being competitive. Unlikely? Probably. Desirable? Definitely.
If DJ fails there is no guarantee that whoever we draft or sign or trade for next year will do better than DJ in our environment. There is a tendency to assume a new QB will fix us but we, like most of the NFL, have more QB misses than hits on our resume. Hope is intoxicating but often ephemeral.
Well said. As they say, grass is always greener on the other side.
So ridiculous that this is even still ongoing. Seriously I'm like the most anti DJ guy there is and I've been over it. Regardless everyone here should want Jones to play all season long so one way or another this debate ends in 2025. We have a year 6 qb who has been a jag every season of his nfl career, the oline is fixed, we have weapons so let's see, either way it's not getting answered before a down has been played.
I am going to share my full opinion of Daniel Jones.
I agree with John Mara when he admitted the team has done everything possible to screw the man up. I don't believe it's possible to accurately scout a quarterback under terrible conditions. It's similar to scouting college QBs. I think most would agree that, based on track record, scouting college QBs is a crap shoot.
As to Daniel Jones, I am less than optimistic (a bit less than 50/50) at this point. Between a screwed-up professional development and beatings that can leave even strong men with post-traumatic stress, it's concerning if DJ will ever reach his full potential. Beyond that, I have very serious concerns about his ability to stay healthy. I appreciate his lack of protection contributed to his injuries, but as Gettleman said, "hurt guys get hurt."
I don't pretend to be able to predict the future. My best guess for this season (assuming a positive outcome) is that DJ will start out slow. Between needing to get used to playing with NFL-calibre protection, so many new receivers, and a new play-caller, it will take time for DJ to get comfortable. Assuming he (and key offensive elements) can stay healthy, the million-dollar question will be what DJ's ceiling will prove to be.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 04:02:27 PM@H-Town G-Fan and @EDjohnst1981
H-town, you were only mentioned because @kingm56 was attempting to gaslight over the insult you hurled.
Do you guys really need to drag down every single threat that discusses our starting QB? Can't we just let DJ play and see how he does? Wouldn't it be better if you talked about Giants football instead of just bashing people you perceive as Daniel Jones sect members?
As a side note, I don't enjoy you guys bashing me. I work too hard, and I deserve to be treated with respect both for my actions/words and as the owner (who spends all his own money) of the site. It's disgraceful how you treat me. I try to treat everyone here well, and you three crap all over me every chance you get.
Amen! The truth is everyone here is a bit antsy now that the new season is a day away from kicking off. Conjecture about the QB is opinion, nothing more, nothing less and its extent and impact is scoped between the ears of the individual with the opinion to begin with.
This site is distinguished because we discuss Giants football in an atmosphere of respect of our fellow brothers and sisters of the Big Blue. We can agree together but we also are mature to disagree, respectfully, using empathy in reviewing every post we are about to contribute before hitting that POST button. That is why, especially in subjects we engage with great passion, there is a PREVIEW button to help provide a moment to exhale, consider your input and its potential impact on a thread and, most importantly, the posting guidelines of this forum.
I've caught myself many times posting cheeky or sarcastic responses because of the mood I was in at that time. When I go back and re-read my post a day or two later, I regret some things I said and, once in a while, I have felt obligated to apologize to an individual and the entire board for what I believe was an inappropriate response.
Long rant over! There has been excellent dialog here, pro and con, on the QB. STAY ON TOPIC!!! DON'T GROUP, MARGINALIZE OR INFER ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS BOARD! It has no place and destroys the quality discussion we were having.
Please! Just stick to the topic and debate your opinions respectfully. You all are valued members with excellent Giants' experiences to share. Opinions will always differ but, in the end, we will always agree on one thing; we love our Football Giants and want them to succeed. When they don't we wallow in whiney-arse sadness/anger/pissy-pants tantrums, whatever, but we do it together under the Big Blue colors.
Peace to you all!
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 07, 2024, 08:19:30 AMI am going to share my full opinion of Daniel Jones.
I agree with John Mara when he admitted the team has done everything possible to screw the man up. I don't believe it's possible to accurately scout a quarterback under terrible conditions. It's similar to scouting college QBs. I think most would agree that, based on track record, scouting college QBs is a crap shoot.
As to Daniel Jones, I am less than optimistic (a bit less than 50/50) at this point. Between a screwed-up professional development and beatings that can leave even strong men with post-traumatic stress, it's concerning if DJ will ever reach his full potential. Beyond that, I have very serious concerns about his ability to stay healthy. I appreciate his lack of protection contributed to his injuries, but as Gettleman said, "hurt guys get hurt."
I don't pretend to be able to predict the future. My best guess for this season (assuming a positive outcome) is that DJ will start out slow. Between needing to get used to playing with NFL-calibre protection, so many new receivers, and a new play-caller, it will take time for DJ to get comfortable. Assuming he (and key offensive elements) can stay healthy, the million-dollar question will be what DJ's ceiling will prove to be.
Pretty much agree. Giants ruined him as the Texans ruined Carr. Now can he rebound, we shall see. If unfortunately he can't he will be gone or a stop gap, but it was the Giants doing as they ruined the end of Elis career with that shitty oline since right about SB 46. Unreal it took more than a decade to still to try to get one thing done correctly.
DJ will either start fairly fast or as you said, potentially slow and steady. Depends on the oline, his weapons and trust in the whole of it all.
Can't break something that never really was.
I try and stick to the topic at hand rather than getting into an useless emotional argument with someone.
TO me Daniel Jones on the high end could be another Jared Goff. It's not a perfect analogy but there are similarities at least in my mind. A guy basically given up on by quite a few people including his own coach but when he came into a system that was effectively tailored for him with a good OC Ben Johnson (no relation to Bobby :crazy: ) and a strong OL combined with some legitimate receiving weapons he has become a pretty reliable if not above average QB. Can he win the big one? Maybe, maybe not. However he has made a Super Bowl and got to a championship game which I think we would all gladly sign up for for DJ right now.
Another ironically good comp could be Kerry Collins. Collins was not the sharpest most, anticipatory QB but when he had good pieces around him he was a QB you could win with (even if not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl with)
Daniel Jones has never even had an average overall offense to work with let alone an above average one. He has had nothing even close to what Goff and Collins have had to work with when they made the playoffs with their respective teams.
DO I think he is Tom Brady? Of course not but could he be something approaching a Goff or Kerry in the right system? Possibly.
Another point to ponder if I may. Some of us are at whits end with this team , I get it. No one is pleased with the performance especially offensively. It's hard not to blame the general of the offense when it sucks. Nevertheless, this in my mind's eye is so much more than just on the QB. The other extenuating circumstances i.e lack of a good OL coach, lack of good OL talent, lack of good receivers and part of his career lack of good system were SO bad that I also at least partially believe Mara's proclamation that 'we have done everything to screw this kid up'.
It's 6 years in and normally I would have given up on the QB entirely by now. I could see Brown sucked by year 2. Kannel it was obvious was a pretty limited ceiling QB, Kent Graham etc. But this kid I think yes it was so darn bad that I am at least willing to give him to the end of the year with what finally, finally, finally (did I say finally?) looks to be a sound support system in place.
I blame ownership, them boggling the gm/coach situation from Shurmer to Daboll set this franchise back. Chicago, NY, 49ers, etc shed their Qb mistakes (that were drafted after Jones) and have already moved on and found new guys while we are asking the same questions we were asking in 2019. Shows how behind this franchise genuinely was when Schoen took it over.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 07, 2024, 11:58:53 AMI try and stick to the topic at hand rather than getting into an useless emotional argument with someone.
TO me Daniel Jones on the high end could be another Jared Goff. It's not a perfect analogy but there are similarities at least in my mind. A guy basically given up on by quite a few people including his own coach but when he came into a system that was effectively tailored for him with a good OC Ben Johnson (no relation to Bobby :crazy: ) and a strong OL combined with some legitimate receiving weapons he has become a pretty reliable if not above average QB. Can he win the big one? Maybe, maybe not. However he has made a Super Bowl and got to a championship game which I think we would all gladly sign up for for DJ right now.
Another ironically good comp could be Kerry Collins. Collins was not the sharpest most, anticipatory QB but when he had good pieces around him he was a QB you could win with (even if not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl with)
Daniel Jones has never even had an average overall offense to work with let alone an above average one. He has had nothing even close to what Goff and Collins have had to work with when they made the playoffs with their respective teams.
DO I think he is Tom Brady? Of course not but could he be something approaching a Goff or Kerry in the right system? Possibly.
Another point to ponder if I may. Some of us are at whits end with this team , I get it. No one is pleased with the performance especially offensively. It's hard not to blame the general of the offense when it sucks. Nevertheless, this in my mind's eye is so much more than just on the QB. The other extenuating circumstances i.e lack of a good OL coach, lack of good OL talent, lack of good receivers and part of his career lack of good system were SO bad that I also at least partially believe Mara's proclamation that 'we have done everything to screw this kid up'.
It's 6 years in and normally I would have given up on the QB entirely by now. I could see Brown sucked by year 2. Kannel it was obvious was a pretty limited ceiling QB, Kent Graham etc. But this kid I think yes it was so darn bad that I am at least willing to give him to the end of the year with what finally, finally, finally (did I say finally?) looks to be a sound support system in place.
Jarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB. He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det. Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good. Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs. His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det. Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.
2017* LAR 15 15 296 477 62.1 3804 28 7 100.5 PB
2018* LAR 16 16 364 561 64.9 4688 32 12 101.1 PB
2019 LAR 16 16 394 626 62.9 4638 22 16 86.5
2020 LAR 15 15 370 552 67 3952 20 13 90
2021 DET 14 14 332 494 67.2 3245 19 8 91.5
2022* DET 17 17 382 587 65.1 4438 29 7 99.3 AP CPoY-6, PB
2023 DET 17 17 407 605 67.3 4575 30 12 97.9
I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse. I don't see any comparison with DJ...
BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level. Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on. That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.
What I'm 100% sure of: Jones will continue to be divisive, whether he's on the squad in 2025 or not.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 12:28:00 PMJarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB. He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det. Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good. Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs. His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det. Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.
2017* LAR 15 15 296 477 62.1 3804 28 7 100.5 PB
2018* LAR 16 16 364 561 64.9 4688 32 12 101.1 PB
2019 LAR 16 16 394 626 62.9 4638 22 16 86.5
2020 LAR 15 15 370 552 67 3952 20 13 90
2021 DET 14 14 332 494 67.2 3245 19 8 91.5
2022* DET 17 17 382 587 65.1 4438 29 7 99.3 AP CPoY-6, PB
2023 DET 17 17 407 605 67.3 4575 30 12 97.9
I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse. I don't see any comparison with DJ...
BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level. Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on. That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.
If Goff or Kerry were the QB of the Giants offense the last 6 years would their statistics be significantly better than DJ?
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 07, 2024, 02:32:28 PMIf Goff or Kerry were the QB of the Giants offense the last 6 years would their statistics be significantly better than DJ?
Yes! From a pure passing perspective, both are significantly more talented, hence their college and HS resumes. I feel confident saying yes, as it's almost impossible to do worse, from a passing production perspective. Would Goff have the same aggregate numbers he enjoys today? Absolutely not, but I do believe they would be better.
I have a few questions for you, uncle Micky:
1. If QBs are merely a byproduct of, and completely dependent on their supporting casts, why do they make so much money? On average, 1 of 50+ players account for 10% of the teams available salary cap. Why don't NFL teams simply spend the money on the line and WRs?
2. Considering DJ has never been an above average passer, at any level, what gives you confidence/hope he can become one after 3 years in college and 5 years in the pros?
3. What above average passing qualities does he have? He has adequate arm strength, average accuracy, and well below average pocket awareness and processing speed. From a physical/mental perspective, besides running, what does he do better than his contemporaries?
4. After seeing Goffs numbers, do you agree he was a good Qb before arriving in Det?
Good conversation, Uncle Mickey!
If my math is correct, this is the 247th thread dedicated to Daniel Jones. In fact, most of the rebuttals here are verbatim from every single other thread on DJ over the past couple of years. I got an idea, let's do another DJ thread at least a hundred more times. Since life is short, and you can never get a single minute back, let's spend the rest of our lives arguing the pros and cons of our QB...and of course, repeat the same argument over and over and over and over and... :doh:
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on September 07, 2024, 03:33:09 PMIf my math is correct, this is the 247th thread dedicated to Daniel Jones. In fact, most of the rebuttals here are verbatim from every single other thread on DJ over the past couple of years. I got an idea, let's do another DJ thread at least a hundred more times. Since life is short, and you can never get a single minute back, let's spend the rest of our lives arguing the pros and cons of our QB...and of course, repeat the same argument over and over and over and over and... :doh:
Yeah, let's instead discuss who Kay Adam's is dating. Is that a better use of our limited time?
This post was started by a poster who has yet to provide insight on DJ. To my knowledge, Uncle Micky hasn't weight in on the subject either. While the conversation is old to you and I, it's fresh to them. Why not let them partake like you and I have for the past few years?
To your mind, what should be discussed in a thread titled "My View on Daniel Jones"?
Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 12:28:00 PMJarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB. He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det. Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good. Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs. His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det. Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.
2017* LAR 15 15 296 477 62.1 3804 28 7 100.5 PB
2018* LAR 16 16 364 561 64.9 4688 32 12 101.1 PB
2019 LAR 16 16 394 626 62.9 4638 22 16 86.5
2020 LAR 15 15 370 552 67 3952 20 13 90
2021 DET 14 14 332 494 67.2 3245 19 8 91.5
2022* DET 17 17 382 587 65.1 4438 29 7 99.3 AP CPoY-6, PB
2023 DET 17 17 407 605 67.3 4575 30 12 97.9
I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse. I don't see any comparison with DJ...
BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level. Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on. That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.
Just to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.
2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1
There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance. I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third. We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.
Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL. Context matters. And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 07, 2024, 08:14:33 PMJust to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.
2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1
There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance. I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third. We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.
Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL. Context matters. And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.
Your point is well taken, Rick. However, he still threw for 4700 yards that season. To that point, there was a drop off, but let's not pretend he didn't have an above average season. The point being, you can still be a productive passer playing behind a less than ideal oline.
Just win!
Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 07, 2024, 08:14:33 PMJust to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.
2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1
There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance. I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third. We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.
Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL. Context matters. And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.
That is a frequent problem. You often see a bunch of production stats quoted or cited with no mention or consideration of the 3 pillars of support. I have been told no one (or precious few) believes a QB's production isn't impacted by the support he receives, yet citing stats without that context requires the assumption that the support a QB is provided doesn't impact production.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 03:08:34 PMYes! From a pure passing perspective, both are significantly more talented, hence their college and HS resumes. I feel confident saying yes, as it's almost impossible to do worse, from a passing production perspective. Would Goff have the same aggregate numbers he enjoys today? Absolutely not, but I do believe they would be better.
I have a few questions for you, uncle Micky:
1. If QBs are merely a byproduct of, and completely dependent on their supporting casts, why do they make so much money? On average, 1 of 50+ players account for 10% of the teams available salary cap. Why don't NFL teams simply spend the money on the line and WRs?
2. Considering DJ has never been an above average passer, at any level, what gives you confidence/hope he can become one after 3 years in college and 5 years in the pros?
3. What above average passing qualities does he have? He has adequate arm strength, average accuracy, and well below average pocket awareness and processing speed. From a physical/mental perspective, besides running, what does he do better than his contemporaries?
4. After seeing Goffs numbers, do you agree he was a good Qb before arriving in Det?
Good conversation, Uncle Mickey!
I think we will just have to agree to disagree here Mr.King.
I tend to believe the supporting cast was incredibly bad when you factor in OL coach, OL talent (that combo probably ranked absolute bottom of the league the moment Booby Johnson came here with Dabes and not much better years prior) . WRs over last 6 years hard to imagine would not rank in the bottom 5 or 6 teams and then a few years we had Jason Garrett as OC.
Talk about a stacked deck in the negative.
In any event, I think we ALL can agree we have improved moderately to substantially in all these areas especially if Bricillo is what we think he is.
Let's see what this week 1 'data point' shows us and we can circle back. :yes:
Even in the early years of Eli, when he had bad showings, you still saw talent. There was hope...and most of all, he kept firing and slinging.
You felt the organization was on the upswing and in good hands. And TC, while a tyrant at times was a great coach.
I am not seeing that here. TC also gave more than BS in the post game presser