Big Blue Huddle

I appreciate that are some people that are closed-minded and will ignore or dismiss this evidence, but for the rest:


As he's done in the past, Lawrence credited Giants defensive line coach Andre Patterson with helping him take his game to a whole new level, going from settling to be good to aspiring to be great.

"Honestly, Coach Dre (Patterson) kind of shifted my mindset to work on things I wasn't good at," Lawrence said. "Kudos to him for helping me think about things that I wasn't necessarily – you know, you go to your natural habits to do what you can to improve in the game."


Lawrence trained with private line coach Mark Hall and nine other first-round picks at the University of Oklahoma in July, a four-week grind-it-out for some of the premier interior linemen in the NFL. He worked alongside guys like the Packers' Kenny Clark, the Dolphins' Christian Wilkins and the 49ers' Arik Armstead, among others, and the changes in his game were evident.


"When Dex came to our summer camp at Oklahoma, I could see everything was falling into place for him," Hall told NorthJersey.com. "Just had a different feel to his game. We were studying film together, and he was getting more out of that than he ever had. He was talking a lot more, going in depth with what he was seeing. His football IQ was definitely rising. You could just tell that he was at another level, and I could see [the impact Patterson and the Giants' defensive staff had on Lawrence]. Did I expect this? This is elite stuff."


"Being quick, being fast with my hands and jumping on a guy before they can get on me," Lawrence said. "[Patterson has] pushed that on me mentally since we met. Keep playing long. Keep playing strong. Manipulate the shoulders. He slows it down where we're walking through it and it's just making everything click. I can see it after I do what he says, and that just motivates you to repeat it over and over, which is what I'm doing."

Lawrence paused before adding with a smile: "When you do that - that's when you dominate."

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 08, 2025, 03:44:05 PMI appreciate that are some people that are closed-minded and will ignore or dismiss this evidence, but for the rest:

Rich,

What's with the personal jabs at those who happen to not 100% agree with you on a particular topic? Do you honestly expect a chorus of unilateral agreement on every opinion you have?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 08, 2025, 03:47:19 PMRich,

What's with the personal jabs at those who happen to not 100% agree with you on a particular topic? Do you honestly expect a chorus of unilateral agreement on every opinion you have?

It wasn't a jab; it was expressing frustration.  If you want to know why I was frustrated, sign 10 of the 10 signs of intellectual honesty, says it perfectly

Quote10. Be willing to publicly acknowledge when a point or criticism is good. If someone is unable or unwilling to admit when their opponent raises a good point or makes a good criticism, it demonstrates an unwillingness to participate in the give-and-take that characterizes an honest exchange.

To refuse to give credit to the D-line coach for Dex's incredible jump when even Dex himself acknowledges it is clearly an example of breaking rule ten.

Look, I don't know why you refused to acknowledge the point.  Perhaps it's because I made the point. Your ally Matt would argue with me if I said the sky was blue.   On the other hand, it could be because you don't believe coaching is as important as players; you just don't want to acknowledge the information.   There could be another reason that I haven't even thought of.

In any event, it's pretty frustrating to present solid and reasonable evidence and examples, only to not be acknowledged and have them completely dismissed.  Is your approach of the most likes from your PM buddies what's most important?  Do you feel arguing and ignoring points made, weaponizing likes, and making snide comments about Daniel Jones is what this forum should be like?

Edit to add:  Did I miss the part where you acknowledged the new evidence?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 08, 2025, 04:09:56 PMIt wasn't a jab; it was expressing frustration.  If you want to know why I was frustrated, sign 10 of the 10 signs of intellectual honesty, says it perfectly

To refuse to give credit to the D-line coach for Dex's incredible jump when even Dex himself acknowledges it is clearly an example of breaking rule ten.

Look, I don't know why you refused to acknowledge the point.  Perhaps it's because I made the point. Your ally Matt would argue with me if I said the sky was blue.   On the other hand, it could be because you don't believe coaching is as important as players; you just don't want to acknowledge the information.   There could be another reason that I haven't even thought of.

In any event, it's pretty frustrating to present solid and reasonable evidence and examples, only to not be acknowledged and have them completely dismissed.  Is your approach of the most likes from your PM buddies what's most important?  Do you feel arguing and ignoring points made, weaponizing likes, and making snide comments about Daniel Jones is what this forum should be like?

Rich,

Considering that right from the get-go you chose to define my stance on this topic in a completely (and I suspect deliberately) false way, all of the above is misguided. It also highlights some real irony around the fact that you are the one handing out lectures on intellectual honesty. How intellectually honest is it to take someone else's opinion and completely bastardize it for the purposes of trying to strengthen your own position?

You made claims about me believing coaching doesn't matter, which of course I don't believe and never once said (in this thread or anywhere). Either you did not read what I wrote very carefully, or you intentionally chose to misrepresent and wildly exaggerate it. With that in mind, none of your subsequent criticism is legitimate or fair in any way.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 08, 2025, 04:30:40 PMRich,

Considering that right from the get-go you chose to define my stance on this topic in a completely (and I suspect deliberately) false way, all of the above is misguided. It also highlights some real irony around the fact that you are the one handing out lectures on intellectual honesty. How intellectually honest is it to take someone else's opinion and completely bastardize it for the purposes of trying to strengthen your own position?

You made claims about me believing coaching doesn't matter, which of course I don't believe and never once said (in this thread or anywhere). Either you did not read what I wrote very carefully, or you intentionally chose to misrepresent and wildly exaggerate it. With that in mind, none of your subsequent criticism is legitimate or fair in any way.

Jeff,

You're right; I broke my own rule, I guessed at your motive.   What I know is that you refused to acknowledge the point that Patterson's coaching took Dex's play to a whole other level.  Your questions and claims were an effort to dispute that evidence.

I really don't know what motivated you to argue with me and try and dismiss reality; only you know that.  So I agree, I was wrong to assume you shared Matt's belief that coaching really doesn't matter in the NFL.  Although I would say, it's frustrating to see actual facts and examples improperly dismissed, regardless of the motive.

I still can't help but note the irony that you accused me of a personal jab suggesting some people would ignore or dismiss the fact that Dex himself credits his coach wwhile literally ignoring that point.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 08, 2025, 03:43:42 PMAgreed, and you will find no better example of this than in the multi-year back and forth debate in this forum around Daniel Jones.

Excellent point

IMHO the word coaching means a lot of things.

1.  Not limited to one person but the actions of many.  A DL position coach may point out a weakness he sees in an opposing guard's technique and explain to a DT how he can take advantage of it in the upcoming game;

2.  A S&C coach helping a DL to do certain strength exercises to get stronger in a certain way to help him better at his position;

3.  A HC yelling at a DL in practice that he is loafing and that in the upcoming game his opponent is going to eat his lunch.  So-called reverse motivation coaching

4. Coach realizing a DT may play better as a 4i than a 3T so playing him lore there.

Coaching is about some big things but lots of nuances.  Again I may be wrong but that is why position coaches work weekly with their units.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 09, 2025, 08:19:31 AMIMHO the word coaching means a lot of things.

1.  Not limited to one person but the actions of many.  A DL position coach may point out a weakness he sees in an opposing guard's technique and explain to a DT how he can take advantage of it in the upcoming game;

2.  A S&C coach helping a DL to do certain strength exercises to get stronger in a certain way to help him better at his position;

3.  A HC yelling at a DL in practice that he is loafing and that in the upcoming game his opponent is going to eat his lunch.  So-called reverse motivation coaching

4. Coach realizing a DT may play better as a 4i than a 3T so playing him lore there.

Coaching is about some big things but lots of nuances.  Again I may be wrong but that is why position coaches work weekly with their units.

Joe,

The interaction between coach and player is a complex one.  It's often difficult to see all the impacts.  Take the Dex example I gave earlier.  Had Dex not been teamed up with one of the best D-line coaches in the business who took his game to the next level, we all would have assumed Dex's ceiling was a good, but not quite, Pro-Bowl caliber interior D-lineman.

Still, there is a reason why the great head coaches tend to win more games than they lose.  Take the top 10 coaches in terms of wins.   It's pretty clear these guys were an important part of their own success and weren't just given great rosters all their careers


Don Shula
George Halas
Bill Belichick
Andy Reid
Tom Landry
Curly Lambeau
Marty Schottenheimer
Chuck Noll
Dan Reeves
Chuck Knox

Their total wins ran from 386 to 186


Speaking of Dan Reeves, remember how he took the roster Ray Handley ran into the ground and produced a playoff birth?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 09, 2025, 08:33:42 AMJoe,

The interaction between coach and player is a complex one.  It's often difficult to see all the impacts.  Take the Dex example I gave earlier.  Had Dex not been teamed up with one of the best D-line coaches in the business who took his game to the next level, we all would have assumed Dex's ceiling was a good, but not quite, Pro-Bowl caliber interior D-lineman.

Still, there is a reason why the great head coaches tend to win more games than they lose.  Take the top 10 coaches in terms of wins.   It's pretty clear these guys were an important part of their own success and weren't just given great rosters all their careers


Don Shula
George Halas
Bill Belichick
Andy Reid
Tom Landry
Curly Lambeau
Marty Schottenheimer
Chuck Noll
Dan Reeves
Chuck Knox

Their total wins ran from 386 to 186


Speaking of Dan Reeves, remember how he took the roster Ray Handley ran into the ground and produced a playoff birth?

To add to that Rich, take I think it's I think Alex Gibbs when he coached the OL of the Broncos for many years.  I believe all their RBs were late round draft picks because their OL operated so well they never needed to spend a 1st rounder on a RB and that was using many different OL players over the years.

Sounds like Patterson has a big role in Dex's accession.

Sounds like a brilliant appointment by the JS/BD regime.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on February 09, 2025, 09:51:15 AMSounds like Patterson has a big role in Dex's accession.

Sounds like a brilliant appointment by the JS/BD regime.

Ed,

Maybe the Giants are an outlier (not that I have heard indications that they are), but usually, the coordinator has a significant role in assembling his coaching staff.  I would think that would be especially true with an experienced DC link Wink. So I would add his name to the list of men responsible for the hire.   

Also, according to the reports from Schoen and Daboll at the time, I don't think Schoen had any role in the hiring of coaches beyond Daboll.  They needed to hit the ground running when they were hired, and Schoen focused on scouting (both pro and college), free agency, and the draft, while Daboll focused on building a coaching staff and developing schemes.

I'm sure Wink did have an input, but I wonder how much. Patterson clearly wasn't in Wink's inner conclave of clandestine stuff otherwise he would have been out the door and and potentially not in the NFL, like Wink.

Personally, there's so much bashing of the Giants management, a little positivity/credit is nice to see. They were dealt an horrific mess to begin with (both cap and personnel) and whilst they've made some poor decisions, I see little point in flogging a dead horse.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on February 09, 2025, 10:27:23 AMI'm sure Wink did have an input, but I wonder how much. Patterson clearly wasn't in Wink's inner conclave of clandestine stuff otherwise he would have been out the door and and potentially not in the NFL, like Wink.

Personally, there's so much bashing of the Giants management, a little positivity/credit is nice to see. They were dealt an horrific mess to begin with (both cap and personnel) and whilst they've made some poor decisions, I see little point in flogging a dead horse.

Ed, I am not sure when Schoen and Daboll have had three years and complete freedom to shape the team and produce the worst record in the league, it's appropriate to suggest criticizing the job the two of them have done constitutes "bashing."

 I didn't say Daboll didn't deserve credit but I also don't think you should ignore Wink's role in an effort boost Shoen and Daboll. 

Speaking of coaches, (I don't know if it's a new show or not)....but I watched ESPN 30 for 30 last night called B&B which was about Parcells and Bellichick. A lot of behind the scenes Giants days.

A must see for any Giants fan

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 09, 2025, 10:32:08 AMEd, I am not sure when Schoen and Daboll have had three years and complete freedom to shape the team and produce the worst record in the league, it's appropriate to suggest criticizing the job the two of them have done constitutes "bashing."

 I didn't say Daboll didn't deserve credit but I also don't think you should ignore Wink's role in an effort boost Shoen and Daboll. 

Wink turned out to be a catastrophic appointment.

Yes, they've had 3 years. Mirred with a woeful cap situation from Solder, Golladay and others. Generally, very poor play at the QB position.

But all of this has been stated elsewhere. We can just disagree.