Maybe Schoen is more enamored with what DeVito did before getting his head slammed off the turf than most here thought.
Of course they will start Danny Boy (they are paying him a fortune), but there is a good chance he will not be the same player after that injury that he was. He might go down again. With a career record of 22-37-1 Jones is no prize.
The new veteran they brought in to back him up- Drew Lock is a journeyman. There is no indictor that this guy also with a 9-14 record as a starter can pull the wagon
That leaves Tommy and he might have some magic left in his game....time will tell
Tommy is 3-2 as a starter and has proven ability to drop in long passes outside the numbers Something Jones could never do and likely cannot learn at this point
Are we set at QB....no.
"Destiny guides our fortunes more favorably than we could have expected. Look there, Sancho Panza, my friend, and see those thirty or so wild giants, with whom I intend to do battle and kill each and all of them, so with their stolen booty we can begin to enrich ourselves. This is nobel, righteous warfare, for it is wonderfully useful to God to have such an evil race wiped from the face of the earth."
"What giants?" Asked Sancho Panza.
"The ones you can see over there," answered his master, "with the huge arms, some of which are very nearly two leagues long."
"Now look, your grace," said Sancho, "what you see over there aren't giants, but windmills, and what seems to be arms are just their sails, that go around in the wind and turn the millstone."
"Obviously," replied Don Quijote, "you don't know much about adventures."
Tommy is worth trying to develop into a competent backup QB. That is the best that can be expected.
If Tommy is the long term answer, we are asking the wrong question.
I don't see it. DeVito was only the full-time starter in three of his five collegiate seasons. Add to the fact he will be 26 years old in August. I don't expect him to be on the roster after this season. I wish we had gotten a QB in the latter rounds, but then again, we only had 6 picks. I will be keeping my eyes on Carsen Beck and Quinn Ewers this upcoming college season
Quote from: ViewFromSection129 on May 02, 2024, 12:44:23 PMTommy is worth trying to develop into a competent backup QB. That is the best that can be expected.
He seemed very competent to me in HS, in College and again in his 5 game tenure with us
Jones had the same horrific losing record in College. The Giants love those Duke QBs
According to Might's post Lock has carried forward a collection of bad habits that even his father pointed out to him to no avail
Tommy has done nothing but win throughout his football career. His teammates love him and he exudes confidence. This cannot be said about the other two
Jones is basically a running QB and Lock has mediocre written all over him.
Sadly with todays NFL rules, no QB, no cigar
Quote from: brownelvis54 on May 02, 2024, 01:37:50 PMI don't see it. DeVito was only the full-time starter in three of his five collegiate seasons. Add to the fact he will be 26 years old in August. I don't expect him to be on the roster after this season. I wish we had gotten a QB in the latter rounds, but then again, we only had 6 picks. I will be keeping my eyes on Carsen Beck and Quinn Ewers this upcoming college season
LOL you didn't expect him to be on the roster this year....dont deny it
Schoen went out of his way to include DeVito in his reasoning to not draft a QB
Lets see where the Chips fall....Jones will be on a short leash. Lock is no "lock"to replace him
That leaves the Jersey hero
Schoen has made comments that placed him in the middle of the road regarding QB all along. After things fell the way they did why would he say anything that might decrease DJ's probability for success?
If they are going to be on your roster than you support them and Schoen is doing just that yet is always looking at his options.
If Tommy was in the running he would not have signed Lock. There is a good chance 2 of the 3 QB's will be gone next season.
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 02, 2024, 01:44:24 PMLOL you didn't expect him to be on the roster this year....dont deny it
Schoen went out of his way to include DeVito in his reasoning to not draft a QB
Lets see where the Chips fall....Jones will be on a short leash. Lock is no "lock"to replace him
That leaves the Jersey hero
What else is he supposed to say? This draft happened the way it had to happen. Prior to the draft we had nothing on offense that scared defensive coaches around the league. We add players to our roster to build our team for the future. Nabers will command attention and that will hopefully equal to other players getting open. We addressed the O-line in FA and UDFA and got a new O-line coach. These issues of bringing in talent and trying to fix the O-line was priority. Jones and Cutlets are already paid for 2024 season. Joe knows this. Unless something drastically changes this upcoming year.....then good bye Jones and Culets. They are just bodies filling a position as of now
Tommy seems to be quite under-rated because of his pre-nfl portfolio. I watched a couple of his games and I really think the kid has some special ability. He has a pretty good arm. He is accurate and throws some catchable balls. His pocket presence is excellent. He can buy time and hit the target running. If no one is open he tries to run or secures the ball for minimal loss. In the Washington game, behind that atrocious line, he was sacked 9 times, but was still able to throw some nice completions and win the game.
On the Jets game, I think, they tied his hands and he still almost won that game! He could have been 4-1, in 5 games with a lousy O line and average targets.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on May 02, 2024, 01:10:33 PMIf Tommy is the long term answer, we are asking the wrong question.
Remember there was no tape on Cutlets and now there is some and every team that is scheduled to play us will be breaking it down. The sophomore slump is real. He's a UDFA. If anything, he's already far exceeded expectations. Enjoy the ride but no, he is not the QB of the future. He will soon be 26 years old. If we can get a young cheap QB2 next year will. I can see Lock being the starter in 2025, until our rookie QB is ready to start. Ewers or Beck or whomever it will be. Cutlets will be remembered for the Italian memes; he gave us some fun games in a season that has been abysmal. After 2024 the Giants will turn the page
Quote from: GloryDays on May 02, 2024, 02:02:11 PMTommy seems to be quite under-rated because of his pre-nfl portfolio. I watched a couple of his games and I really think the kid has some special ability. He has a pretty good arm. He is accurate and throws some catchable balls. His pocket presence is excellent. He can buy time and hit the target running. If no one is open he tries to run or secures the ball for minimal loss. In the Washington game, behind that atrocious line, he was sacked 9 times, but was still able to throw some nice completions and win the game.
On the Jets game, I think, they tied his hands and he still almost won that game! He could have been 4-1, in 5 games with a lousy O line and average targets.
I agree. Some people just can't get past his lack of pre-NFL credentials but the eye test doesn't lie. I don't believe a Gardner Minshew type career is out of the question for him if he can land in the right situation.
Everyone of us here have a right to be disappointed about not getting the last franchise grade QB in the draft. There is a reason QBs went 1-2-3 and then not another until pick 8 (and a surprise pick at that).
Short of that, Giants decided no QB outside of the top 3 was a clear upgrade to DJ. Whether they are right or wrong will be proven soon. We have the support pieces in place now at least in theory. An OL that was further addressed with veterans not rookies with learning curves , a legitimate OL coach and a day ready made WR1.
We as the Big Blue Fans of Folk Lore need to be rooting like heck for DJ . He is the guy with the highest talent upside of any of the QBs we have. Therefore, if he finally hits that ceiling with all the better support pieces that are in place , this team would be the best version of what it could be starting next year!
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 02, 2024, 05:56:09 PMEveryone of us here have a right to be disappointed about not getting the last franchise grade QB in the draft. There is a reason QBs went 1-2-3 and then not another until pick 8 (and a surprise pick at that).
Short of that, Giants decided no QB outside of the top 3 was a clear upgrade to DJ. Whether they are right or wrong will be proven soon. We have the support pieces in place now at least in theory. An OL that was further addressed with veterans not rookies with learning curves , a legitimate OL coach and a day ready made WR1.
We as the Big Blue Fans of Folk Lore need to be rooting like heck for DJ . He is the guy with the highest talent upside of any of the QBs we have. Therefore, if he finally hits that ceiling with all the better support pieces that are in place , this team would be the best version of what it could be starting next year!
Exactly!
one must not forget Tommy got thrown to the beast with little preparation
he kook the opportunity and beat Philly, his throws along the boundaries are world class
he keeps his head together and inspires the offense and never panics
Brown and Id dare say Lock do not posses this kind of polish and confidence...sorry but the Jersey Tomato is the best of the lot by far. I think Schoen knows this too
Will dump Brown at ist opportuity, disregard Lock and promote Tommy who has gotten lots of reps running the practice teaming will be ready when called
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 02, 2024, 11:08:26 PMone must not forget Tommy got thrown to the beast with little preparation
he kook the opportunity and beat Philly, his throws along the boundaries are world class
he keeps his head together and inspires the offense and never panics
Brown and Id dare say Lock do not posses this kind of polish and confidence...sorry but the Jersey Tomato is the best of the lot by far. I think Schoen knows this too
Will dump Brown at ist opportuity, disregard Lock and promote Tommy who has gotten lots of reps running the practice teaming will be ready when called
I admire your tenacity, if not your judgement.
Oh, by the way, who is Brown?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 02, 2024, 11:49:31 PMI admire your tenacity, if not your judgement.
Oh, by the way, who is Brown?
Jones, Brown whatever lousy QB Duke is sending our way next LOL
I cannot believe Jones was that easily forgettable. Whatever
we must watch this clown show once again and it will not be pretty
Tommy will ready when inevitably called to arms
Is this entire thread a satire? :surrender:
If Tommy was in this years draft, he would have been sitting at a bar in downtown Detroit with Sam Hartman watching the draft.
Everyone likes Tommy and I hope he does well, but the Giants aren't going to carry three QB's and he's not making the final roster unless Jones or Lock get injured or traded. He's going to hit the waver wire and if he clears, he will wind up on the practice squad.
Quote from: WheresDayne on May 03, 2024, 07:26:43 AMIs this entire thread a satire? :surrender:
The world will never know. Good old BluesCruz...the Andy Kaufman of BBH.
I guess we are just ignoring that Devito got benched last year lol.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:20:08 AMI guess we are just ignoring that Devito got benched last year lol.
Plenty of hall of fame quarterbacks have been benched. What matters is how he responds.
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 03, 2024, 07:52:45 AMIf Tommy was in this years draft, he would have been sitting at a bar in downtown Detroit with Sam Hartman watching the draft.
Everyone likes Tommy and I hope he does well, but the Giants aren't going to carry three QB's and he's not making the final roster unless Jones or Lock get injured or traded. He's going to hit the waver wire and if he clears, he will wind up on the practice squad.
no way in HADES he clears now...that train has left the station
hopefully They ditch Lock in camp or Danny Dimes is not ready to go until Christmas
It must be painful to realize DeVito is the only NFL QB on the roster
Dimes is only on the roster because of Mara's man love
I like Tommy. I do. However Tommy doesn't have nearly the upside of Jones. Jones high level plays be it throws or runs are higher than any high level throws of anyone on the team. Everyone of us , though we have short memory, have seen numerous 'wow' plays from Daniel. That is fact. It is evident when watching the top plays of each QB on the team he ca make the rare and special throws. The question is is DJ's ability to process the field seem compromised because he is just not great in this area or is it more due to a historically bad offensive line combined with well below average WRs.
This is what this year should bear out for us. I am truly hoping it's the latter. Because if so, we would have that guy who has had made some very high level plays in his career playing at that high level a lot more consistently with the better support system around him.
Quote from: GloryDays on May 02, 2024, 02:02:11 PMTommy seems to be quite under-rated because of his pre-nfl portfolio. I watched a couple of his games and I really think the kid has some special ability. He has a pretty good arm. He is accurate and throws some catchable balls. His pocket presence is excellent. He can buy time and hit the target running. If no one is open he tries to run or secures the ball for minimal loss. In the Washington game, behind that atrocious line, he was sacked 9 times, but was still able to throw some nice completions and win the game.
On the Jets game, I think, they tied his hands and he still almost won that game! He could have been 4-1, in 5 games with a lousy O line and average targets.
BRAVO BRAVO {Applause from me} and my candidate for post of the decade
VERY BRAVE and astute of you with this crowd. Most would not know a good QB if he landed on them. Jones has issues long and on the border that are unsolvable
not to mention zero pocket presence
PS- Now that Phil Simms has lost his job- a shame because he really knows his stuff. Phil should be invited to camp to school the 3 QBs a bit
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 08:54:40 AMI like Tommy. I do. However Tommy doesn't have nearly the upside of Jones. Jones high level plays be it throws or runs are higher than any high level throws of anyone on the team. Everyone of us , though we have short memory, have seen numerous 'wow' plays from Daniel. That is fact. It is evident when watching the top plays of each QB on the team he ca make the rare and special throws. The question is is DJ's ability to process the field seem compromised because he is just not great in this area or is it more due to a historically bad offensive line combined with well below average WRs.
This is what this year should bear out for us. I am truly hoping it's the latter. Because if so, we would have that guy who has had made some very high level plays in his career playing at that high level a lot more consistently with the better support system around him.
Jones is the "Mechanical Man". WYSG. What you see is what you are going to get .... now minus the running with the bad neck and knee
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 09:02:15 AMJones is the "Mechanical Man". WYSG. What you see is what you are going to get .... now minus the running with the bad neck and knee
Team fixes OL or gets a dominant WR or both. Incumbent QB's confidence and production (if the QB is truly talented) suddenly goes up and is more consistent. Seen this rodeo play out too many times to assume our QB stinks just yet.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 09:07:13 AMTeam fixes OL or gets a dominant WR or both. Incumbent QB's confidence and production (if the QB is truly talented) suddenly goes up and is more consistent. Seen this rodeo play out too many times to assume our QB stinks just yet.
Believe me Uncle he STINKS and the stink will get far worse without the 700 yds running
Quote from: TONKA56 on May 03, 2024, 08:07:19 AMThe world will never know. Good old BluesCruz...the Andy Kaufman of BBH.
Thanks I admired Andy. A brave comedian to the end....appreciate the allusion
I speak my mind and in my mind the truth. This entire post 2011 era has been a continual mind blowing sea of Giants ineptitude
Someone has to call them out. A free medium coke once a decade just does not satisfy my thirst for another Lombardy
I'm sure, I could run this franchise far better than Mara and his Clown Toot Toot Train
Too much fraternity and aspiring for mediocrity as a goal
Mara needs to lose his man love for bad players and and bad play and bring in the GOAT- Belicheck and give him total control
For me, I am excited about watching this competition, but I hope it is a real one and the best man will be chosen to lead our team back to glory soon.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 09:07:13 AMTeam fixes OL or gets a dominant WR or both. Incumbent QB's confidence and production (if the QB is truly talented) suddenly goes up and is more consistent. Seen this rodeo play out too many times to assume our QB stinks just yet.
Uncle Mickey,
I absolutely love your posts and appreciate your perspective...you have added a lot of value to this board; however, in this situation, I fundamentally disagree with you. We have discussed this premise ad nauseam over the last 2 years; when said subject arises, I ask posters to cite just three veteran QBs over the last 3 decades that significantly improved with an elite QB and/or OL. For DJs situation, in the last 40 years, I cannot think of a single example of a player who played 60+ games that meets your description. There are examples of very young QBs who benefited from elite WR/OL play, but we should avoid viewing those improvements in a vacuum. For example, on average, QBs make significant leaps between their 2d and 3d seasons; thus, how much of Josh Allen's improvement was due to Diggs vice the organic evolution of a young QB? I am not going to pretend Diggs did not help, but he was hardly the sole reason for Allen's improvement. In addition, I bet Allen will continue to be good without Diggs, which reinforces the notion he had the goods to begin with, so to speak.
The only viable examples cited over the last few years are Alex Smith and Geno Smith; however, the former was 'fired' twice after said 'improvement', which begs the question how much did he really improve? Plus, Smith emergence was more about finally staying healthy than being paired with an elite WR. As @Jess highlighted in a different thread, his per game average was consistent after his second season. Geno Smith enjoyed just 23 starts before being replaced; from his 25th start on, his per game averages were consistent, including his one start with our Giants.
Talking Heads yap about this premise all the time; however, the data simply doesn't support this notion for vetern QBs. I'm not saying an Elite OL/WR won't help, but will it fundamentally alter the QBs trajectory (i.e. make them into a championship QB)? Am I missing a veteran QB who evolved into the player you described?
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 11:31:08 AMI fundamentally disagree with you. We have discussed this premise ad nauseam over the last 2 years; when said subject arises, I ask posters to cite just three veteran QBs over the last 3 decades that significantly improved with an elite QB and/or OL. For DJs situation, in the last 40 years, I cannot think of a single example of a player who played 60+ games that meets your description.
Quarterbacks who have been either dumped by their team (and thrived elsewhere, which assumes better support) or just got a lot better
Geno Smith
Baker Mayfield
Kerry Collins
Rich Gannon
Matt Schaub
Jimmy Garoppolo
Doug Flutie
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 11:51:48 AMQuarterbacks who have been either dumped by their team (and thrived elsewhere, which assumes better support) or just got a lot better
What does this have to do with premise discussed? To my knowledge, nobody is arguing against the possibility of QB with limited starts getting better. QBs with less than 30 starts can, and do, improve; however, QBs with more than ~30 Starts do not, certainly not 60 starts. Isn't that obvious by now?
Geno Smith – Prior to 2021, he had just 29 starts.
Baker Mayfield - His best year was actually his rookie year; so, how does this fit the narrative? The answer is it does not. The only thing consistent about Mayfield is his inconsistency. He had three good years, and two bad years. His contract (only $28M guarantee) is a reflection of that reality.
Kerry Collins - Kerry Collins was a pro bowler by his second season. He struggled because of alcoholism, which is well documented. Again, this has nothing to do with magically becoming better because of an elite WR and/or OL.
Rich Gannon – The single true example, which I have acknowledged multiple times; still, it's one example in 40 years of football.
Matt Schaub - Schaub did not play his first three seasons and was not afforded an opportunity until 2007, his per game average from that point was fairly consistent.
Jimmy G - Spent his first 3 seasons as a backup, and only completed 2 of 10 seasons without being injured. He was never going to start over Tom Brady. Once again, his per game averages were fairly consistent from season 3 on, once he got a chance to start. He is also a backup again. So, how exactly is he thriving, or had his career fundamentally altered? He started as a backup and is a backup...
Doug Flutie – Was a backup for his first 6 years before getting frustrated and moving to USFL; when he returned, he only started for 3 of 8 seasons. I do not view this as thriving or suddenly becoming consistent.
Given the limited and frankly weak examples, which spans 40-years, perhaps it is time to evaluate the narrative that veteran QBs magically become better with coaching, OL or Elite WRs? Are we really going to argue that any of these QBs had their careers fundamentally altered and become top-tier/championship caliber QBs?
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 11:31:08 AMUncle Mickey,
I absolutely love your posts and appreciate your perspective...you have added a lot of value to this board; however, in this situation, I fundamentally disagree with you. We have discussed this premise ad nauseam over the last 2 years; when said subject arises, I ask posters to cite just three veteran QBs over the last 3 decades that significantly improved with an elite QB and/or OL. For DJs situation, in the last 40 years, I cannot think of a single example of a player who played 60+ games that meets your description. There are examples of very young QBs who benefited from elite WR/OL play, but we should avoid viewing those improvements in a vacuum. For example, on average, QBs make significant leaps between their 2d and 3d seasons; thus, how much of Josh Allen's improvement was due to Diggs vice the organic evolution of a young QB? I am not going to pretend Diggs did not help, but he was hardly the sole reason for Allen's improvement. In addition, I bet Allen will continue to be good without Diggs, which reinforces the notion he had the goods to begin with, so to speak.
The only viable examples cited over the last few years are Alex Smith and Geno Smith; however, the former was 'fired' twice after said 'improvement', which begs the question how much did he really improve? Plus, Smith emergence was more about finally staying healthy than being paired with an elite WR. As @Jess highlighted in a different thread, his per game average was consistent after his second season. Geno Smith enjoyed just 23 starts before being replaced; from his 25th start on, his per game averages were consistent, including his one start with our Giants.
Talking Heads yap about this premise all the time; however, the data simply doesn't support this notion for vetern QBs. I'm not saying an Elite OL/WR won't help, but will it fundamentally alter the QBs trajectory (i.e. make them into a championship QB)? Am I missing a veteran QB who evolved into the player you described?
Thanks King! I appreciate all the varying opinions here on the matter. As long as folks make arguments that have some level of substantiation to it, I'm cool with it.
The way I see it is no two QB situations are exactly alike. And the level of ineptitude that DJ has had at OL coaching, OL talent and the WR talent is pretty much unprecedented in my 40 some odd years watching Giant football. With that said, I can draw at least a bit of correlation when I see a cat like Tua or Josh Allen or Geno or when you see a guy like Baker Mayfield get some OL protection and go from not really having a top WR1 to having one and all of a sudden they go from kinda mediocre to franchise looking QBs. Its not a perfect analogy mind you, but there is enough similarity (at least in my perspective) to where I have hope for DJ in a better situation. It's not like none of us have never seen flashes of brilliance from him. Everyone of us has. The kid has thrown some absolute laser throws that crossed the 'i's and that dotted the 't's!
I just don't think that's an unfair assessment for some to have even though it's taken this 'abnormally' long time to improve the offense around him.
Lastly confidence is a very interesting thing when it comes to a QB. Let's see what a significantly better coached OL combined with a hopefully no doubter elite WR1 in Nabers , a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale do for DJ.
I think we all can at least agree the support system has a chance to be significantly better in numerous areas for DJ this year.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 03, 2024, 01:29:53 PMThanks King! I appreciate all the varying opinions here on the matter. As long as folks make arguments that have some level of substantiation to it, I'm cool with it.
The way I see it is no two QB situations are exactly alike. And the level of ineptitude that DJ has had at OL coaching, OL talent and the WR talent is pretty much unprecedented in my 40 some odd years watching Giant football. With that said, I can draw at least a bit of correlation when I see a cat like Tua or Josh Allen or Geno or when you see a guy like Baker Mayfield get some OL protection and go from not really having a top WR1 to having one and all of a sudden they go from kinda mediocre to franchise looking QBs. Its not a perfect analogy mind you, but there is enough similarity (at least in my perspective) to where I have hope for DJ in a better situation. It's not like none of us have never seen flashes of brilliance from him. Everyone of us has. The kid has thrown some absolute laser throws that crossed the 'i's and that dotted the 't's!
I just don't think that's an unfair assessment for some to have even though it's taken this 'abnormally' long time to improve the offense around him.
Lastly confidence is a very interesting thing when it comes to a QB. Let's see what a significantly better coached OL combined with a hopefully no doubter elite WR1 in Nabers , a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale do for DJ.
I think we all can at least agree the support system has a chance to be significantly better in numerous areas for DJ this year.
Call me Matt, my friend. I think we disagree on flashes of brilliance. DJ hasn't flashed any more brilliance than Mitch Trubisky or other QBs of their ilk. I have maintained for 3+ years that DJ, like virtually all NFL starters, will benefit from improved supporting talent. However, in 60 games, I have yet to witness any element of his game that gives me any confidence he's a championship-caliber QB. IMO, it's very obvious that he is what he is, and has always been.
Again, I really appreciate your post. Just because we don't agree on this one subject, I look forward to engaging with you on areas we agree.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 01:50:18 PMCall me Matt, my friend. I think we disagree on flashes of brilliance. DJ hasn't flashed any more brilliance than Mitch Trubisky or other QBs of their ilk. I have maintained for 3+ years that DJ, like virtually all NFL starters, will benefit from improved supporting talent. However, in 60 games, I have yet to witness any element of his game that gives me any confidence he's a championship-caliber QB. IMO, it's very obvious that he is what he is, and has always been.
Again, I really appreciate your post. Just because we don't agree on this one subject, I look forward to engaging with you on areas we agree.
Thanks Matt, I see some really really pretty balls come off of that arm. Throws with zip, throws on the run , in tight windows etc. Is he perfect? Absolutley not! But he is absolutely capable of making high level NFL QB plays with his arm and his legs. I truly think it's there. The hope is the consistency part increases with WRs who beat their defenders more consistently and a properly coached OL that more consistently protects than be a free for all turnstile right to the QB.
I think we DO agree that the support system around him has a strong chance to be significantly better. If we are in agreement there then we probably can both agree this year will be a 'cementer' either way. Either DJ balls out or he continues his inconsistency and the 'excuse' of no-talent or proper support around him is gone.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 01:50:18 PMDJ hasn't flashed any more brilliance than Mitch Trubisky or other QBs of their ilk.
Just last year Jones accomplished something no QB in the NFL's 100+ year history ever accomplished (against the Cards)
Jones became the first quarterback ever to throw for 250 yards, rush for 50 yards, throw multiple touchdown passes, rush for a touchdown and not commit a turnover in the second half of a game.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 02:08:24 PMJust last year Jones accomplished something no QB in the NFL's 100+ year history ever accomplished (against the Cards)
Jones became the first quarterback ever to throw for 250 yards, rush for 50 yards, throw multiple touchdown passes, rush for a touchdown and not commit a turnover in the second half of a game.
Here were a few more flashes
Jones was the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with 2 games of 300+ passing yards and 4+ touchdown passes – and he had 3 of them.
Jones' 24 touchdown passes led all rookie quarterbacks in 2019 and were the 4th-most by a rookie in a single season in NFL history...Only Baker Mayfield (27 in 2018), Peyton Manning (26 in 1998) and Russell Wilson (26 in 2012) had more.Jones was the 5th rookie in NFL history to throw 5 touchdown passes in a game...The others were Detroit's Matthew Stafford vs. Cleveland on Nov. 22, 2009; Tampa Bay's Jameis Winston at Philadelphia on Nov. 22, 2015; and Houston's Deshaun Watson vs. Kansas City on Oct. 8, 2017 and Ray Buivid, who played for the Chicago Bears in 1937-38...On Dec. 5, 1937, he threw 5 touchdown passes in the season finale in Wrigley Field vs. the Chicago Cardinals.Jones joined Dallas' Dak Prescott (twice in 2016) as the only rookie quarterbacks in NFL history with 2 games of at least 300 passing yards, 2 touchdown passes and zero interceptions...The game in Washington was Jones' 3rd with at least 4 touchdown passes...The only other rookies in NFL history to do that were Watson and Pro Football Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton in 1961.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 02:31:17 PMHere were a few more flashes
Jones was the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with 2 games of 300+ passing yards and 4+ touchdown passes – and he had 3 of them.
Jones' 24 touchdown passes led all rookie quarterbacks in 2019 and were the 4th-most by a rookie in a single season in NFL history...Only Baker Mayfield (27 in 2018), Peyton Manning (26 in 1998) and Russell Wilson (26 in 2012) had more.
Jones was the 5th rookie in NFL history to throw 5 touchdown passes in a game...The others were Detroit's Matthew Stafford vs. Cleveland on Nov. 22, 2009; Tampa Bay's Jameis Winston at Philadelphia on Nov. 22, 2015; and Houston's Deshaun Watson vs. Kansas City on Oct. 8, 2017 and Ray Buivid, who played for the Chicago Bears in 1937-38...On Dec. 5, 1937, he threw 5 touchdown passes in the season finale in Wrigley Field vs. the Chicago Cardinals.
Jones joined Dallas' Dak Prescott (twice in 2016) as the only rookie quarterbacks in NFL history with 2 games of at least 300 passing yards, 2 touchdown passes and zero interceptions...The game in Washington was Jones' 3rd with at least 4 touchdown passes...The only other rookies in NFL history to do that were Watson and Pro Football Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton in 1961.
Passing attempts:
1,872
Passing completions:
1,200
Completion percentage:
64.1%
TD–INT:
72–48
Passing yards:
12,536
Passer rating:
85.5
Career history
* Pro Bowl (2018)
* Third-team All-ACC (2016)
DANIEL JONES
Passing attempts:
1,900
Passing completions:
1,221
Completion percentage:
64.3%
TD–INT:
62–40
Passing yards:
12,512
Passer rating:
85.2
Rushing yards:
1,914
Rushing touchdowns:
13
Career history
* New York Giants (2019–present)
Roster status:
Active
Almost identical numbers, except Mitch has a pro bowl to his name and some college accolades. DJ has Active player.
I'm not saying Mitch is better, but he had equal 'flashes.' Again, they are no tangible examples in 25 years, and only 1 in 40 years that support your supposition. Why do you think there are Limited, to no tangible examples?
I do appreciate the time supporting your positions.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 03:31:40 PMPassing attempts:
1,872
Passing completions:
1,200
Completion percentage:
64.1%
TD–INT:
72–48
Passing yards:
12,536
Passer rating:
85.5
Career history
* Pro Bowl (2018)
* Third-team All-ACC (2016)
DANIEL JONES
Passing attempts:
1,900
Passing completions:
1,221
Completion percentage:
64.3%
TD–INT:
62–40
Passing yards:
12,512
Passer rating:
85.2
Rushing yards:
1,914
Rushing touchdowns:
13
Career history
* New York Giants (2019–present)
Roster status:
Active
Almost identical numbers, except Mitch has a pro bowl to his name and some college accolades. DJ has Active player.
I'm not saying Mitch is better, but he had equal 'flashes.' Again, they are no tangible examples in 25 years, and only 1 in 40 years that support your supposition. Why do you think there are Limited, to no tangible examples?
I do appreciate the time supporting your positions.
Matt,
You are conflating season stats with what
@Uncle Mickey called "flashes of brilliance."
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 03:33:08 PMMatt,
You are conflating season stats with what @Uncle Mickey called "flashes of brilliance."
You highlighted DJs 'brilliance', while simultaneously discounting Mitch T own brilliance. The latter was an NFC player on the week and pro bowler in 2018. That's the point; a lot of NFL starters flash brilliance, which is why they're 1 of 32 people in the world to do it.
Is it really a flash of brilliance if Baker Mayfield, Dak and Jameis Winston are also listed?
Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 03:45:01 PMYou highlighted DJs 'brilliance', while simultaneously discounting Mitch T own brilliance. The latter was an NFC player on the week and pro bowler in 2018. That's the point; a lot of NFL starters flash brilliance, which is why they're 1 of 32 people in the world to do it.
I listed actual historic accomplishments by DJ. Most reasonable people would consider a historic accomplishment (against a league with a 100+ year history) as "flashes of brilliance". In what way did what you just say negate the point I made?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 05:24:30 PMI listed actual historic accomplishments by DJ. Most reasonable people would consider a historic accomplishment (against a league with a 100+ year history) as "flashes of brilliance". In what way did what you just say negate the point I made?
All of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.
Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.
As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.
People forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:40:01 PMAll of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.
Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.
As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.
100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did. Look, in the end, you and
@kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback. In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.
That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair. There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree. Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point? It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball. As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly. Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower. It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.
I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man. If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad. If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else, I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.
So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 07:05:58 AMIn fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.
That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair.
Rich,
Is Jones himself responsible for any of his own failures?
Would you say it is "fair" to blame a QB's struggles entirely on everyone else and not hold the player accountable for any of it?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 08:22:09 AMRich,
Is Jones himself responsible for any of his own failures?
Would you say it is "fair" to blame a QB's struggles entirely on everyone else and not hold the player accountable for any of it?
Yes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation. Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings. It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 08:46:22 AMYes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation. Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings. It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.
But that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.
Every QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 04, 2024, 09:05:11 AMBut that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.
Jess,
QB's rising above terrible situations is extremely rare. Sometimes, what appears to be a QB rising above a bad situation is more illusion than reality. The Texans and CJ Stroud is a perfect example. The 2022 Texans were a terrible team. Yet, between FA additions, an extremely good draft, and a major coaching upgrade, the 2023 Texans were much better regardless of the addition of CJ Stroud.
I guess you can look at first-overall pick QB like Lawerence or highly touted Herbert as players who put up pretty good stats (although in situations considerably better than Jones had). Still, while their raw stats were pretty good (although in the case of Lawerence, they are on par with DJ's), their team's success didn't reflect their QB's success
Quote from: Trench on May 04, 2024, 09:10:22 AMEvery QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument
This comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones. Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument. The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance. Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point). Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."
How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 09:15:46 AMThis comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones. Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument. The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance. Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point). Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."
How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?
The better question: How can you have a quality conversation when the opposing viewpoint reframes aggregate responses to benefit thier position? Pray Tell, show me where the "Jones Critics" dismissed his 'brilliance.' Indeed, DJ's had some wonderful games/movements. Nobody dismises that point; some, put them into context, like @Jess who noted most occurred during his rookie campaign. However, that's not the majority point. The point was, and still is, a lot of professional QBs have moments of brilliance, especially QBs with 60 starts. However, you chose to completely ignore that point, presumably because you don't have a good response; thus, you simply reframed the oppositions' position to give yourself the moral and intellectual high-ground.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 09:27:27 AMThe better question: How can you have a quality conversation when the opposing viewpoint reframes aggregate responses to benefit thier position? Pray Tell, show me where the "Jones Critics" dismissed his 'brilliance.' Indeed, DJ's had some wonderful games/movements. However, that's not the majority point. The point was, and still is, a lot of professional QBs have moments of brilliance, especially QBs with 60 starts. However, you chose to completely ignore that point, presumably because you don't have a good response; thus, you simply reframed the oppositions' position to give yourself the moral and intellectual high-ground.
Even now, instead of hearing what I said and making an effort to understand my point, you only listen to the extent needed to formulate some sort of rebuttal
:surrender:
I used to disagree with Ed in terms of debate. Ed opposed debate, while I thought it could be fun. I think the problem is what we saw as debate. I guess I saw the debate as discussing differing points of view, while I suspect Ed was seeing it as never listening to what the other side said and instead focusing all of one's efforts to try and prove that person wrong.
I spent considerable thought and effort trying to improve the quality of discourse, only to have those comments fall on deaf ears, and the issues I raised were just added to. I don't know what else I can do.
:surrender:
You win, whatever it is you think you are winning. I can't keep going around in circles like this.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 08:46:22 AMYes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation. Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings. It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.
That is fair. I have never denied that Jones' circumstances are substantially less than ideal if not downright poor. The whole team has been downright poor (or perhaps mediocre in some areas). I just don't think this 100% absolves Jones himself from his frequently poor play, nor do I think it 100% accounts for his lack of durability either. I appreciate that, based on your response above, you don't seem to feel that way either. I guess where we may differ is I have never seen any evidence (either before or after Jones arrived in the NFL) that he is going to be particularly good. You have said if everything around him gets better he can be a top 10 starter. I can't see that myself, but I'd certainly be delighted if it happened while he's still a Giant, which in my opinion is unlikely to extend beyond 2024.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 04, 2024, 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.
DJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.
He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)
I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.
I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.
Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 04, 2024, 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.
The Giants pushing the "Danny Dimes" nickname was a classic PR blunder. If Gettleman and NYG were savvy, they would have let it leak to one or two draftniks or insiders that they had an interest in Daniel Jones in the draft. Part of the overall negative reaction to Jones being drafted at 6 is it made the draftniks who failed to predict that look bad (since where players are drafted is really the only measure for people in the draftnik community). Had there been leaks and some draftniks looked good by calling the pick, the reception would have been at least less negative.
Calling a rookie QB "Danny Dimes" before he even took a regular-season snap just put a bull's eye on Jones.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 10:14:12 AMDJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.
He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)
I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.
I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.
Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?
Brother, the pre season is rarely in indicator on future success; id caution you from trying to glean anything from those pointless exhibitions.
Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and how you carry yourself. Again, I look forward to future discussions.
Btw, I hope the Giants aren't relying on hope, as hope is not a viable course of action 😝
The most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system. :surprise:
I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 10:24:23 AMThe most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system. :surprise:
I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.
This requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem? If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff? I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB? Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB?
His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect. I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem? If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff? I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB? Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB?
If you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:35:56 AMIf you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?
You answered a question with a question. Again, can anyone explain why Kafka was a hot OC, led the leagues best passing game in KC, was considered a Genius here in 2022, but is now a reason for DJs failures? I'd also like to hear more about how a hot OC in Buff and NFL CoY is also part of DJs problem.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:42:32 AMYou answered a question with a question. Again, can explain why Kafka was a hot OC and led the leagues best passing game in KC, but a reason for DJs failures here? I'd also like to hear more about how a hot OC in Buff and NFL CoY is part of DJs problem.
I think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game." Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator. To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:44:51 AMI think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game." Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator. To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.
In my opinion, QBs (and the rest of their offenses) tend to make OCs - not the other way around. Daboll himself is a good example. He had been an OC in numerous places prior to Buffalo and was never considered anything noteworthy until he got Josh Allen. Every other OC job he had before that led to him being fired. After spending a few years with Josh Allen as the OC, he was suddenly the hottest candidate for a head coaching job in the league. How come that never happened after any of his prior OC stints?
Please don't misconstrue the above as a claim on my part that some OCs are not better than others. I am not saying that at all and don't think that. Clearly some are very good, some are very bad, and many are somewhere in between. All I am saying is the guys on the field matter more than the guy with the headset. And the final numerical arbiter of value (compensation) duly reflects that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:44:51 AMI think you are overstating things when you claim that Kafka "led the league's best passing game." Kafka wasn't the OC; he was the quarterback's coach & passing game coordinator. To make matters worse, Andy Reid, rather than the OC, calls the plays for the Chiefs.
Again, you're obfuscating. Can you please answer the question. Putting everything aside, why did both the OC and HC have immense success in KC and Buff, but considered a hindrance to DJ now? Why weren't they hinderances in 2022?
Isn't it more likely DJ is a hindrance to the HC, than the latter is to the former?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 10:53:09 AMIn my opinion, QBs (and the rest of their offenses) tend to make OCs - not the other way around. Daboll himself is a good example. He had been an OC in numerous places prior to Buffalo and was never considered anything noteworthy until he got Josh Allen. Every other OC job he had before that led to him being fired. After spending a few years with Josh Allen as the OC, he was suddenly the hottest candidate for a head coaching job in the league. How come that never happened after any of his prior OC stints?
Please don't misconstrue the above as a claim on my part that some OCs are not better than others. I am not saying that at all and don't think that. Clearly some are very good, some are very bad, and many are somewhere in between. All I am saying is the guys on the field matter more than the guy with the headset. And the final numerical arbiter of value (compensation) duly reflects that.
If you really want to appreciate the importance of the OC in the grand scheme of things, just compare the 2022 Eagles offense versus the 2023 Eagles offense. Under one OC in 2022, they were 3rd in both points and yards. With essentially the same roster but a new OC, that unit was ranked 7th in points and yards under their new OC.
Still, the debate over the relative importance of coaching versus talent has been going on since football was first invented. So I doubt we will resolve the issue now.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:59:22 AMwhy did both the OC and HC have immense success in KC and Buff
Because both the Chiefs and the Bills have immensely more talented rosters from top to bottom.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 11:04:01 AMIf you really want to appreciate the importance of the OC in the grand scheme of things, just compare the 2022 Eagles offense versus the 2023 Eagles offense. Under one OC in 2022, they were 3rd in both points and yards. With essentially the same roster but a new OC, that unit was ranked 7th in points and yards under their new OC.
Still, the debate over the relative importance of coaching versus talent has been going on since football was first invented. So I doubt we will resolve the issue now.
There is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem? If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff? I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB? Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB?
His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect. I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.
The coaching , he did have with Shurmur at least from an offensive standpoint but he wasn't more than an average to above average offensive coach. He isn't like some hot name in coaching circles right now, to be quite frank. However he definitely wasn't terrible either. Garrett was absolutely horrific and Daboll/Kafka is likely an above average to better than that coach.
However, with that said, you also need an offensive line to be functional , combined with some level of decent WRs. When you take those two critical aspects of the support system into account, it's hard to argue this wasn't a bottom of the barrel combination his entire career.
I agree the kitchen wasn't bare but it wasn't far off.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.
I am afraid I can't agree with your assertion. If I were to put it in simple terms of who is more important, coaches or talent, I would put it at about even. Still, I think to appreciate the situation fully, it's important to appreciate the interaction between coaching and talent. Great coaching will make their talent look better than it is through superior player development and putting players in a position to thrive (as well as optimal motivation), and vice versa for poor coaching.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.
I think this is a fascinating topic but even this is fairly nuanced. It depends on the situation. Some players are naturally motivated for greatness and need little motivation so from that standpoint coaching is lessened. However where coaching is always critical is scheme. A Garrett scheme in today's NFL is easily neutered no matter what talent you have on the field. It was a horrific scheme. We even see a guy like Engram do quite a bit better outside that Garrett scheme.
Here's another great recent example: Eagles last year were not diametrically different than the prior year talent wise. The biggest difference on that team is they lost a marquis OC and DC that were so highly esteemed in NFL circles, that they got promoted to head coaches elsewhere. The OC and DC they replaced them with last year were not good and it subsequently manifested on the field. Roseman being the strong GM he is, wasted no time replacing them with marquis guys in Moore and Fangio.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 11:22:54 AMI am afraid I can't agree with your assertion. If I were to put it in simple terms of who is more important, coaches or talent, I would put it at about even. Still, I think to appreciate the situation fully, it's important to appreciate the interaction between coaching and talent. Great coaching will make their talent look better than it is through superior player development and putting players in a position to thrive (as well as optimal motivation), and vice versa for poor coaching.
The best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.
Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.
Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?
I was taught price was determined by supply and demand, not by the perceived "value" of the goods or service
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.
Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?
Tangible vs the intangible. Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 11:46:10 AMTangible vs the intangible. Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol
The NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.
If coaches don't count more than players that list Mighty posted of pff grades for all our olinemen would seem to negate all the optimism being expressed about how the Giants should have an average Oline. OTOH, a bad Oline coach like Johnson can certainly have a negative effect.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:54:03 AMThe NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.
To Mighty's point some think finding a special talent at a position like QB is harder than finding a 'good enough' coach to coach him.
So I think there is some truth in what everyone is asserting here.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:54:03 AMThe NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.
There is a big difference between winning and maxing out profits in the NFL.
I guess this isn't a Tommy Devito thread any longer.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 04, 2024, 11:59:19 AMTo Mighty's point some think finding a special talent at a position like QB is harder than finding a 'good enough' coach to coach him.
So I think there is some truth in what everyone is asserting here.
From what I have seen, the Giants have struggled just as much to find a proper replacement for Tom Coughlin as they have trying to replace Eli Manning (perhaps even more so)
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 07:05:58 AM100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did. Look, in the end, you and @kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback. In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.
That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair. There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree. Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point? It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball. As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly. Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower. It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.
I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man. If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad. If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else, I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.
So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.
that's just the point
He flashes brilliance but is not a reliable week to week performer
he lacks the subtle abilities that make for a solid franchise QB
can't make the throws downfield outside the numbers
can't sense the rush
can't often find the open target
hesitates with his release
much like Sequon flashed brilliance and spent the rest of the day dancing
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 04, 2024, 01:46:28 PMthat's just the point
He flashes brilliance but is not a reliable week to week performer
he lacks the subtle abilities that make for a solid franchise QB
can't make the throws downfield outside the numbers
can't sense the rush
can't often find the open target
hesitates with his release
much like Sequon flashed brilliance and spent the rest of the day dancing
Saquon has consistently produced at a high level when healthy. Jones has not.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 02:01:05 PMSaquon has consistently produced at a high level when healthy. Jones has not.
How?
His running is littered with no gains and occasional long runs
He often dropped outlet passes
He was hesitant and a poor blocking back
The biggest issue is the Giants spoon fed him the ball all day and everyone knew what was coming
He rarely broke tackles and arm tackles took him down
He was no Tiki Barber that's for sure
We will see if having a "better Line" rights his ship
If not he goes down as one our worst draft picks of all time
No Gold Jackets Im afraid
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 05, 2024, 07:27:01 AMHow?
His running is littered with no gains and occasional long runs
He often dropped outlet passes
He was hesitant and a poor blocking back
The biggest issue is the Giants spoon fed him the ball all day and everyone knew what was coming
He rarely broke tackles and arm tackles took him down
He was no Tiki Barber that's for sure
We will see if having a "better Line" rights his ship
If not he goes down as one our worst draft picks of all time
No Gold Jackets Im afraid
My point was not that Saquon was a perfect player or the best running back in the league - simply that, when healthy, he has generally produced at a high level.
98.8 all-purpose yards per game over the course of his 74 game career, and that actually includes all the games where he was clearly playing at a less than healthy level, ie the entire 2021 season and parts of other seasons when he came back from injuries sooner than expected and took a handful of games to get back to his normal self.
Jones' career numbers are clearly not anywhere near the QB-equivalent level of production that Saquon's are. I think that is plain as day, frankly.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 05, 2024, 08:32:14 AMMy point was not that Saquon was a perfect player or the best running back in the league - simply that, when healthy, he has generally produced at a high level. 98.8 all-purpose yards per game over the course of his 74 game career, and that actually includes all the games where he was clearly playing at a less than healthy level, ie the entire 2021 season and parts of other seasons when he came back from injuries sooner than expected and took a handful of games to get back to his normal self.
Jones' career numbers are clearly not anywhere near the QB-equivalent level of production that Saquon's are. I think that is plain as day, frankly.
You know I secretly never thought we could sniff a SB with those two in the backfield
Barkley is gone and overpaid Danny is going. Schoen will ease him to the side door this coming off season
There is hope for the future
Schoen likely felt like me but had to placate his boss and bide his time getting rid of them....anyway that's a thought. Im happy with that possible addition by subtraction
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 03:57:05 PMIs it really a flash of brilliance if Baker Mayfield, Dak and Jameis Winston are also listed?
With his supporting cast it illudes to great ability, if not brilliance.
Quote from: GloryDays on May 06, 2024, 11:05:17 PMWith his supporting cast it illudes to great ability, if not brilliance.
uh huh