Ray Agnew, Lions assistant general manager
Dawn Aponte, NFL's chief administrator of football operations
Mike Borgonzi, Chiefs assistant GM
Ian Cunningham, Chicago Bears assistant GM
Thomas Dimitroff, former Falcons GM
John Dorsey, Lions senior personnel executive
Ray Farmer, Rams senior personnel executive
Mike Greenberg, Buccaneers assistant GM
Mike Martin, Lions director of scouting advancement
Lance Newmark, Commanders assistant GM
Phil Savage, Jets interim general manager
John Spytek, Buccaneers assistant general manager
Nolan Teasley, Seahawks assistant general manager
Josh Williams, 49ers director of scouting and football operations
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Detroit Lions OC Ben Johnson
Detroit Lions DC Aaron Glenn
Browns consultant Mike Vrabel
Vikings DC Brian Flores
Bills OC Joe Brady
Panthers DC Ejiro Evero
Bucs OC Liam Coen
Steelers OC Arthur Smith
Chargers DC Jesse Minter
Commanders OC Kliff Kingsbury
Ravens OC Todd Monken
Bears interim HC Thomas Brown
Not a very inspiring list
We go to lengths bashing the so called weak class of QBs, but don't do the same for this years coach/GM carousel
The two potential HCs who really intrigue me are Todd Monken, the OC of the Ravens and Jesse Minter, the DC of the Chargers. Monken has worked wonders with Lamar Jackson since he became OC following the same stint at UGA. Jackson is a more complete passer who now can hit all areas of the field more accurately especially standing flat footed in the pocket. Monken has also become a great play caller as he utilizes Jackson to run as much it seems as Derrick Henry plus lots of crossing routes to get Flowers open.
Jesse Minter has been nothing short of brilliant first at Michigan as DC and now with the Chargers. In Bama's loss to Michigan, Saban said Minter called coverages he's never seen before and which really confused the offense. That's high praise from a legend. In Minter's first year as Chargers, DC, they are top 3. Players both at Michigan and the Chargers raved about his schemes, but about how well he teaches and communicates with them. Minter coached under both John and Jim Harbaugh.
Ray Agnew would at first glance seem intriguing as a GM coming out of the Lions, however, he joined in 2021. I am not sure how much influence he has had there. I'd love to steal Eric DeCosta from the Ravens who is already a GM there and has been there since 1996.
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 23, 2024, 05:52:42 PMNot a very inspiring list
We go to lengths bashing the so called weak class of QBs, but don't do the same for this years coach/GM carousel
You have no clue who might turn into a good coach or not. How many predicted young Sean McVay would turn out to be one of the best HCs in the NFL? Or John Harbaugh when he was hired. Hire the right guy. Do your research. The Giants blew it three years ago when they hired Daboll over Flores. Time to get it right.
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 06:02:30 PMYou have no clue who might turn into a good coach or not. How many predicted young Sean McVay would turn out to be one of the best HCs in the NFL? Or John Harbaugh when he was hired. Hire the right guy. Do your research. The Giants blew it three years ago when they hired Daboll over Flores. Time to get it right.
Same logic goes to the QBs as well
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 23, 2024, 06:18:05 PMSame logic goes to the QBs as well
Yes but because of that you do not shy away from taking one. There are no sure things in life.
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 23, 2024, 05:52:42 PMNot a very inspiring list
We go to lengths bashing the so called weak class of QBs, but don't do the same for this years coach/GM carousel
I remember a time when the Pats and Seahawks were dragged for hiring Belichek and Carroll. You just never know.
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 06:02:30 PMYou have no clue who might turn into a good coach or not. How many predicted young Sean McVay would turn out to be one of the best HCs in the NFL? Or John Harbaugh when he was hired. Hire the right guy. Do your research. The Giants blew it three years ago when they hired Daboll over Flores. Time to get it right.
TBD on Daboll. Give him a real QB before sealing his fate.
Harbaugh had Flacco and Jackson.
McVey had Goff and Stafford.
Because of Mara, Daboll had Jones.
Daboll is 2-13 this season. We are the worst team in the league. Jones was a problem, but far from the only one. We have to get Daboll a QB is the new version of, "let's not judge Danny until we get him a line and some weapons."
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 07:44:33 PMTBD on Daboll. Give him a real QB before sealing his fate.
Harbaugh had Flacco and Jackson.
McVey had Goff and Stafford.
Because of Mara, Daboll had Jones.
Oh I see. They are not good coaches. They just have good QBs.
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 08:21:43 PMOh I see. They are not good coaches. They just have good QBs.
Isn't that usually how it goes?
Do you think they'd be as successful with Daniel Jones instead of the QBs they had?
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 08:38:42 PMIsn't that usually how it goes?
Do you think they'd be as successful with Daniel Jones instead of the QBs they had?
Yes. Not Super Bowl successful, but their teams would be fundamentally sound. Would be prepared. Would be motivated. Would be competitive. Something the head coach of the Giants has not accomplished with his team in any way.
Out of that good list, my favorites would be:
Josh Williams, 49ers director of scouting and football operations
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Detroit Lions OC Ben Johnson
Ravens OC Todd Monken
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 08:50:05 PMYes. Not Super Bowl successful, but their teams would be fundamentally sound. Would be prepared. Would be motivated. Would be competitive. Something the head coach of the Giants has not accomplished with his team in any way.
I get that you want him fired and he's done plenty to support that stance.
But saying he did nothing with this team is just pure bull doody.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 09:05:21 PMI get that you want him fired and he's done plenty to support that stance.
But saying he did nothing with this team is just pure bull doody.
Bottom line: 5-12. 2-13. 'Nuff said. Please, I don't want to hear excuses why he hasn't succeeded, I want to hear what he has gotten the team to do well in the past two years. I see nothing, but maybe you know something I don't.
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 09:15:52 PMBottom line: 5-12. 2-13. 'Nuff said. Please, I don't want to hear excuses why he hasn't succeeded, I want to hear what he has gotten the team to do well in the past two years. I see nothing, but maybe you know something I don't.
I do but you're not willing to hear it.
Look, we don't decide anything. That's up to Mara and/or Schoen.
If both Schoen and Daboll are back, that tells me I was on the right track with what I think happened regarding Jones and Mara's involvement.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 09:22:28 PMI do but you're not willing to hear it.
Look, we don't decide anything. That's up to Mara and/or Schoen.
If both Schoen and Daboll are back, that tells me I was on the right track with what I think happened regarding Jones and Mara's involvement.
We can agree that the common denominator issue that plagues the organization is Mara. And a symptom of that issue was Mara 's judgement in his hires including the hiring of Schoen who hired Daboll. Both have been failures but yes the biggest failure is Mara. Still tell me what Daboll does well as a coach. You say you have but I must have missed it.
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 09:30:57 PMWe can agree that the common denominator issue that plagues the organization is Mara. And a symptom of that issue was Mara 's judgement in his hires including the hiring of Schoen who hired Daboll. Both have been failures but yes the biggest failure is Mara. Still tell me what Daboll does well as a coach. You say you have but I must have missed it.
He has solid offensive game plans. He put together a good coaching staff.
Could those areas be better? Certainly. The #1 reason this offense has not lived up to its potential is the deficiency at QB.
We had a serviceable offensive line and very good skill position players this year. Having a real QB who could move the ball and put TDs on the board would have changed the dynamic of this team and the season.
Daboll is far from perfect. But he has been limited by the most important position on the field. Give him a QB who can run this offense and he will look much better.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 09:48:50 PMHe has solid offensive game plans. He put together a good coaching staff.
Could those areas be better? Certainly. The #1 reason this offense has not lived up to its potential is the deficiency at QB.
We had a serviceable offensive line and very good skill position players this year. Having a real QB who could move the ball and put TDs on the board would have changed the dynamic of this team and the season.
Daboll is far from perfect. But he has been limited by the most important position on the field. Give him a QB who can run this offense and he will look much better.
Thanks. I'm not sure about the coaching staff. The defensive coordinator is not good and the special teams are a mess. What you seem to be describing in terms of positives is a good offensive coordinator not a head coach. I want the Giants to find a solid head coach. We all know the QB issue. I've been all over that for several years.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 08:38:42 PMIsn't that usually how it goes?
Do you think they'd be as successful with Daniel Jones instead of the QBs they had?
I have no doubt all of them would do better than 2-13. You are exaggerating, Sir.
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Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 09:48:50 PMHe has solid offensive game plans. He put together a good coaching staff.
Could those areas be better? Certainly. The #1 reason this offense has not lived up to its potential is the deficiency at QB.
We had a serviceable offensive line and very good skill position players this year. Having a real QB who could move the ball and put TDs on the board would have changed the dynamic of this team and the season.
Daboll is far from perfect. But he has been limited by the most important position on the field. Give him a QB who can run this offense and he will look much better.
What players have developed under Daboll?
What unit has improved over the years?
Where is there a positive on the play of the team?
Let me ask a simple question.
Why is 3 years not enough time to evaluate the job that both Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll have done?
Did special teams improve over the 3 years or the D or the O?
What about player development?
Did player acquisition notably improve?
Are we a better team in 2024 than we were at the end of 2021?
Three years are enough when you evaluate all these components.
I think it's a helpful exercise to toss Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll into the appropriate list and see who you pick for GM and HC from the list. If it's not Joe and Brian, it's time for a change.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 24, 2024, 06:20:01 AMI have no doubt all of them would do better than 2-13. You are exaggerating, Sir.
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So your position is that if you replace Daboll with any of those coaches, they'd be better than 2-13? How much better? 4-11? 6-9? 8-7? 10-5?
What exactly did I exaggerate?
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 07:29:46 AMWhat players have developed under Daboll?
What unit has improved over the years?
Where is there a positive on the play of the team?
There was improved play across the board until Thomas went down.
Why the drop in production? I have no clue.
I do agree that it was a mistake for Daboll to take over OC duties instead of letting Kafka do the job.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 08:56:17 AMSo your position is that if you replace Daboll with any of those coaches, they'd be better than 2-13? How much better? 4-11? 6-9? 8-7? 10-5?
What exactly did I exaggerate?
The exaggeration is in this weird insistence that everything bad about the team and men leading is the one man Daniel Jones. Just not a serious analysis. He wasn't good, sure. But he's gone now and the team is horrible. I believe Daboll is an incompetent HC irrespective of Daniel Jones. You seem to think he'd be John Harbaugh if he had... Joe Flacco?
Just not serious.
Also, sorry, Daniel Jones was his guy. And Schoen's. That's what happens after three years with the same guy.
I would consider keeping Schoen if Mara hired a President of Football Operations (who Schoen reported to)
Aponte or Savage would be good candidates for the President job
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 24, 2024, 09:55:00 AMThe exaggeration is in this weird insistence that everything bad about the team and men leading is the one man Daniel Jones. Just not a serious analysis. He wasn't good, sure. But he's gone now and the team is horrible. I believe Daboll is an incompetent HC irrespective of Daniel Jones. You seem to think he'd be John Harbaugh if he had... Joe Flacco?
Just not serious.
Also, sorry, Daniel Jones was his guy. And Schoen's. That's what happens after three years with the same guy.
Sounds like you either don't fully understand my point or you're adding something to it and then judging me on it.
Regardless, I realize I'm on my own little island as far as wanting both Schoen and Daboll back. I'm good with that.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 24, 2024, 09:55:00 AMThe exaggeration is in this weird insistence that everything bad about the team and men leading is the one man Daniel Jones. Just not a serious analysis. He wasn't good, sure. But he's gone now and the team is horrible. I believe Daboll is an incompetent HC irrespective of Daniel Jones. You seem to think he'd be John Harbaugh if he had... Joe Flacco?
Just not serious.
Also, sorry, Daniel Jones was his guy. And Schoen's. That's what happens after three years with the same guy.
Interesting that you mentioned Harbaugh and Flacco.
When Flacco started declining and was not longer effective, Harbaugh's seat was getting warm. He drafted Lamar Jackson and we see the difference a very good QB can make not only for the team but the coach as well.
I have never suggested that Daboll was this great coach. My only point is that he hasn't had a good QB to work with. I truly believe that if he was able to get Maye or Daniels, this team would be closer to .500 and showing much more progress.
If he gets Ward or Sanders (or whatever QB they believe in) in April, barring a major injury, this team can be .500 or better next year.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 11:01:40 AMInteresting that you mentioned Harbaugh and Flacco.
When Flacco started declining and was not longer effective, Harbaugh's seat was getting warm. He drafted Lamar Jackson and we see the difference a very good QB can make not only for the team but the coach as well.
I have never suggested that Daboll was this great coach. My only point is that he hasn't had a good QB to work with. I truly believe that if he was able to get Maye or Daniels, this team would be closer to .500 and showing much more progress.
If he gets Ward or Sanders (or whatever QB they believe in) in April, barring a major injury, this team can be .500 or better next year.
Harbaugh's Ravens never got to the point that Daboll's Giants are at, even with a declining Flacco. I continue to think it's simplistic to attribute this dumpster fire to "Daboll didn't get to work with his own QB". I think that's frankly delusional about the state of the team and the many reasons why they're so bad.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 24, 2024, 11:13:57 AMHarbaugh's Ravens never got to the point that Daboll's Giants are at, even with a declining Flacco. I continue to think it's simplistic to attribute this dumpster fire to "Daboll didn't get to work with his own QB". I think that's frankly delusional about the state of the team and the many reasons why they're so bad.
You continue to insinuate and add things that I didn't say. Further, distilling it down to "Daboll didn't get to work with his own QB" completely removes all the nuance and effects of having a competent QB. If you don't think a good QB has an effect on how the offensive line performs, how the receivers perform, and how the defense performs, there's no point in me further discussing football with you.
Stop with the excuses. Dabs cant coach. The fact he could not either get DJ to stop throwing meaningless 4 yard checkdowns to go to 4th down or does not see how meaningless they are tells me he is not fit for the job.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 11:54:32 AMStop with the excuses. Dabs cant coach. The fact he could not either get DJ to stop throwing meaningless 4 yard checkdowns to go to 4th down or does not see how meaningless they are tells me he is not fit for the job.
What excuses have I made? Jones was not a good QB and that's Daboll's fault? He was forced to work with him and because he couldn't duplicate 2022, he's a bad coach?
:surrender:
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 12:10:29 PMWhat excuses have I made? Jones was not a good QB and that's Daboll's fault? He was forced to work with him and because he couldn't duplicate 2022, he's a bad coach?
:surrender:
I am not specifically calling you out. Dabs could have benched DJ. He could have demanded a QB be drafted last year. Instead he went in laissez-faire like, "it's cool. It will all be good." Same attitude before we got drubbed 40-0 by the Cowboys last year on opening game.
His judgment is terrible.
Also his prep is terrible. His in game adjustments are terrible.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 12:42:26 PMI am not specifically calling you out. Dabs could have benched DJ. He could have demanded a QB be drafted last year. Instead he went in laissez-faire like, "it's cool. It will all be good." Same attitude before we got drubbed 40-0 by the Cowboys last year on opening game.
His judgment is terrible.
Also his prep is terrible. His in game adjustments are terrible.
I know I've said this a bazillion times already: Schoen and Daboll had to show Mara, the only person who wanted Jones and had the influence to make it happen, that Jones was not the answer.
Benching Jones too early would not have proven it. Bringing in a better backup would not have proven it. Jones needed to play and leave no doubt that this team was doomed with him at QB.
I do not disagree with you on Daboll's questionable calls and prep.
I will stand on this: put a better QB on this exact roster in place of Jones at the beginning of the season and I guarantee the record isn't 2-13.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 12:42:26 PMI am not specifically calling you out. Dabs could have benched DJ. He could have demanded a QB be drafted last year. Instead he went in laissez-faire like, "it's cool. It will all be good." Same attitude before we got drubbed 40-0 by the Cowboys last year on opening game.
His judgment is terrible.
Also his prep is terrible. His in game adjustments are terrible.
Ben Johnson could be HC with this same roster and it wouldn't be much different IMO.
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 24, 2024, 12:50:14 PMBen Johnson could be HC with this same roster and it wouldn't be much different IMO.
Because we have no QB.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 12:51:26 PMBecause we have no QB.
Bingo :football: :nanner: :football:
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 12:49:03 PMI know I've said this a bazillion times already: Schoen and Daboll had to show Mara, the only person who wanted Jones and had the influence to make it happen, that Jones was not the answer.
Benching Jones too early would not have proven it. Bringing in a better backup would not have proven it. Jones needed to play and leave no doubt that this team was doomed with him at QB.
I do not disagree with you on Daboll's questionable calls and prep.
I will stand on this: put a better QB on this exact roster in place of Jones at the beginning of the season and I guarantee the record isn't 2-13.
It wont be 2-13 but it wont be 9-6 either. Everything from philosophy on down needs to be changed. Things like "winning preseason matters 100% to foster a winning culture."
Los Angeles Chargers were 5-12 last season with key players on team. They needed a philosophical change and better game preparation and in game adjustments to be the team they are now which is chasing the playoffs. Giants need all that plus a QB, Ol players, another WR, a true #1 boundary CB and a run stuffing D.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 01:27:51 PMIt wont be 2-13 but it wont be 9-6 either. Everything from philosophy on down needs to be changed. Things like "winning preseason matters 100% to foster a winning culture."
Los Angeles Chargers were 5-12 last season with key players on team. They needed a philosophical change and better game preparation and in game adjustments to be the team they are now which is chasing the playoffs. Giants need all that plus a QB, Ol players, another WR, a true #1 boundary CB and a run stuffing D.
I do agree that pre-season should be spent more on the starters versus evaluating fringe players. They are already short one game and they need to be ready for Week 1 as much as possible.
The Chargers had a QB in place. Denver had a veteran that Payton didn't want and went for who he did want.
Payton was able to walk in the door and say, "I don't want Russ" because he was a proven winner. Schoen and Daboll didn't have the credentials to force a stance on Mara.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 01:43:26 PMI do agree that pre-season should be spent more on the starters versus evaluating fringe players. They are already short one game and they need to be ready for Week 1 as much as possible.
The Chargers had a QB in place. Denver had a veteran that Payton didn't want and went for who he did want.
Payton was able to walk in the door and say, "I don't want Russ" because he was a proven winner. Schoen and Daboll didn't have the credentials to force a stance on Mara.
Chargers were 5-12 last year with Justin Herbert
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 03:07:39 PMChargers were 5-12 last year with Justin Herbert
Good QB with a good coach equals success. In today's NFL, one or the other isn't enough. A team needs both.
I know people are concerned about the record the past two years. I'm not. We haven't had a QB. People are so wanting to fire Daboll that they can't admit that the QB was most responsible for holding this offense back for two years.
That doesn't mean Daboll is some offensive savant. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just think he's capable of much more with the right QB.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 03:23:31 PMGood QB with a good coach equals success. In today's NFL, one or the other isn't enough. A team needs both.
I know people are concerned about the record the past two years. I'm not. We haven't had a QB. People are so wanting to fire Daboll that they can't admit that the QB was most responsible for holding this offense back for two years.
That doesn't mean Daboll is some offensive savant. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just think he's capable of much more with the right QB.
I don't want to go round and round, but I don't think Daboll has proven anything either with the Bills, Alabama or with the Giants.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 03:37:21 PMI don't want to go round and round, but I don't think Daboll has proven anything either with the Bills, Alabama or with the Giants.
I get it and I respect that view.
We'll see soon enough if he gets another opportunity to change your mind.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 03:42:59 PMI get it and I respect that view.
We'll see soon enough if he gets another opportunity to change your mind.
All of us here are happy to be wrong if it means team success.
Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 12:49:03 PMI know I've said this a bazillion times already: Schoen and Daboll had to show Mara, the only person who wanted Jones and had the influence to make it happen, that Jones was not the answer.
Benching Jones too early would not have proven it. Bringing in a better backup would not have proven it. Jones needed to play and leave no doubt that this team was doomed with him at QB.
I do not disagree with you on Daboll's questionable calls and prep.
I will stand on this: put a better QB on this exact roster in place of Jones at the beginning of the season and I guarantee the record isn't 2-13.
The first part of your post is pure speculation. You don't know that, and neither does anyone else.
The last part is silly. Having Jones as QB doesn't explain a 2-13 record. I'm afraid you have an overly simplistic analysis of this team.m
Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 03:07:39 PMChargers were 5-12 last year with Justin Herbert
Because they had no head coach. Now they do.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:57:25 AMBecause they had no head coach. Now they do.
That's my point. Great QB is not a panacea to an automatic good play. Harbaugh had to fix other things.
Can you imagine the pressure Daboll would be under if he returns next year if he doesn't win games right away. Not to mention trying to hire anyone of quality for his staff knowing he is on such a hot seat. If he comes back it's a recipe for disaster in so many ways, but what it really does is postpone the inevitable and push the transition back another year.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:54:37 AMThe first part of your post is pure speculation. You don't know that, and neither does anyone else.
The last part is silly. Having Jones as QB doesn't explain a 2-13 record. I'm afraid you have an overly simplistic analysis of this team.m
Of course it's speculation. I've never suggested that I know more than anyone else here. Looking at how things transpired, that's the most likely scenario that I could envision. While I'm OK with people who don't agree with it, I definitely don't think it's far-fetched either.
Last, I don't have anything overly simplistic view of the team. That's *your* view of my analysis... please don't attribute it to me. Own it.
I've said numerous times that it's more nuanced than that and have laid out exactly how the lack lack of a QB affects the entire team, not just the offense. To suggest that I'm blaming the 2-13 record on Jones is not discussing this in good faith.
For the record, I have no loyalty or allegiance to Schoen and Daboll. My views are based on what I would do if I was in Mara's position and what little I know of football. As much as I want both of them back, I don't dismiss other points of view that want them gone. There's good reasons on both sides, IMHO.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 08:38:42 PMIsn't that usually how it goes?
Do you think they'd be as successful with Daniel Jones instead of the QBs they had?
Nah! Blame it on the kicker, um, all the kickers, for all the missed game winners, and pay no attention to those blocked kicks; we're blaming those on the kickers as well!
So there!
Peace!
There's a reason it's called a team sport.
QB
ORT
G
WR - stud opposite Nabers
DT
CB1
RB to pair with Tracy
Quote from: kartanoman on December 25, 2024, 05:56:24 PMNah! Blame it on the kicker, um, all the kickers, for all the missed game winners, and pay no attention to those blocked kicks; we're blaming those on the kickers as well!
So there!
Peace!
For sure! No one is exempt from criticism and blame! :cheers:
Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 06:02:30 PMYou have no clue who might turn into a good coach or not. How many predicted young Sean McVay would turn out to be one of the best HCs in the NFL? Or John Harbaugh when he was hired. Hire the right guy. Do your research. The Giants blew it three years ago when they hired Daboll over Flores. Time to get it right.
Is this the same Sean McVay who, in his one full season without a Pro Bowl or All-Pro QB, managed a 5-12 record? His team also went 2-6 during that season with John Wolford, Bryce Perkins, and Baker Mayfield starting games. Aside from 2022, McVay has consistently had the benefit of a healthy Pro Bowl and/or All-Pro quarterback for the vast majority of each season. Without one, he looks a lot like Brian Daboll....
Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:57:25 AMBecause they had no head coach. Now they do.
@Philosophers The facts directly dispute your points. The facts are, Bob Staley, who I acknowledge is a terrible coach, produced the following records:
2022 10-7-0 2nd -- AFC West 0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs
2021 9-8-0 3rd -- AFC West
In 2023, Justin Herbert was injured in Week 10, missing the remainder of the season, and the team went 0-5 with Easton Stick as their quarterback.
Jim Harbaugh, despite having more talent, is on pace to match the same record Brandon Staley achieved just two years ago. The common dominator seems to be a healthy Herbert...
The examples you've provided actually undermine your argument. They clearly demonstrate that a team's success is heavily dependent on the quality of its quarterback rather than its head coach. A subpar coach with a top-10 quarterback can still achieve double-digit wins. However, the reverse—a great coach succeeding without a quality QB—is FAR less common. Just ask Bill B....
Quote from: kingm56 on December 26, 2024, 11:30:51 AMIs this the same Sean McVay who, in his one full season without a Pro Bowl or All-Pro QB, managed a 5-12 record? His team also went 2-6 during that season with John Wolford, Bryce Perkins, and Baker Mayfield starting games. Aside from 2022, McVay has consistently had the benefit of a healthy Pro Bowl and/or All-Pro quarterback for the vast majority of each season. Without one, he looks a lot like Brian Daboll....
@Philosophers
The facts directly dispute your points. The facts are, Bob Staley, who I acknowledge is a terrible coach, produced the following records:
2022 10-7-0 2nd -- AFC West 0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs
2021 9-8-0 3rd -- AFC West
In 2023, Justin Herbert was injured in Week 10, missing the remainder of the season, and the team went 0-5 with Easton Stick as their quarterback.
Jim Harbaugh, despite having more talent, is on pace to match the same record Brandon Staley achieved just two years ago. The common dominator seems to be a healthy Herbert...
The examples you've provided actually undermine your argument. They clearly demonstrate that a team's success is heavily dependent on the quality of its quarterback rather than its head coach. A subpar coach with a top-10 quarterback can still achieve double-digit wins. However, the reverse—a great coach succeeding without a quality QB—is FAR less common. Just ask Bill B....
I only used 2023 to make my point if memory serves. In 2023, Justin Herbert played and started in 13 games and his record over those 13 games was 5-8. Now with Harbaugh, the Chargers record is 9-6 with more wins possible.
I agree with you QB matters more than a HC however a good coach can fix other things that a QB cannot which can result in other wins such as improving a D, special teams, running say a more balanced run-pass ratio that aids in play action effectiveness.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 26, 2024, 11:41:07 AMI only used 2023 to make my point if memory serves. In 2023, Justin Herbert played and started in 13 games and his record over those 13 games was 5-8. Now with Harbaugh, the Chargers record is 9-6 with more wins possible.
I agree with you QB matters more than a HC however a good coach can fix other things that a QB cannot which can result in other wins such as improving a D, special teams, running say a more balanced run-pass ratio that aids in play action effectiveness.
Joe,
First, Happy Holidays!
I don't believe you can summarily dismiss the Chargers' performances in 2022 and 2021. Harbaugh, with more talent, is fundamentally producing the same results.
As for
@BlueMoshik's claim that Harbaugh was the key difference in the Chargers' positive season, the evidence simply doesn't support that narrative. The Chargers, even under a head coach many would consider subpar, managed to achieve back-to-back successful seasons. This strongly suggests that the real driving force behind their success is the consistent presence of a top-10 quarterback. In short, the QB's talent and playmaking ability appear to be the common denominator, not the head coach.
This pattern underscores a broader point: while coaching can influence outcomes, it's ultimately the elite talent at quarterback that anchors a team's success. Overlooking this key factor risks attributing too much credit to coaching while downplaying the role of top-tier players in driving positive results. Again, I NEVER viewed Daboll as a top-tier coach; yet, I absolutely acknowledge
@T200 point...he's never had a QB better than the bottom 1/3 to work with...
Quote from: kingm56 on December 26, 2024, 11:51:29 AMJoe,
First, Happy Holidays!
I don't believe you can summarily dismiss the Chargers' performances in 2022 and 2021. Harbaugh, with more talent, is fundamentally producing the same results.
As for @BlueMoshik's claim that Harbaugh was the key difference in the Chargers' positive season, the evidence simply doesn't support that narrative. The Chargers, even under a head coach many would consider subpar, managed to achieve back-to-back successful seasons. This strongly suggests that the real driving force behind their success is the consistent presence of a top-10 quarterback. In short, the QB's talent and playmaking ability appear to be the common denominator, not the head coach.
This pattern underscores a broader point: while coaching can influence outcomes, it's ultimately the elite talent at quarterback that anchors a team's success. Overlooking this key factor risks attributing too much credit to coaching while downplaying the role of top-tier players in driving positive results. Again, I NEVER viewed Daboll as a top-tier coach; yet, I absolutely acknowledge @T200 point...he's never had a QB better than the bottom 1/3 to work with...
Matt - Happy Holidays also to you my friend.
In 4 years prior to Harbaugh, Herbert's record as a starter was 30-32. Fans who knew the team a lot better than both of us were very critical that Herbert's skills were not being maximized. Think that record proves it. Herbert's TDs declined from 38 to 25 from one season to the next.
Harbaugh said the best way to help Herbert is with a robust running game and a better D. I think he's achieving that, but more importantly the team may now be better positioned for a long term run.
Joe,
The primary problem with the Chargers in recent years has undeniably been their defense, as reflected in their NFL rankings:
2023: Ranked 28th in the NFL
2022: Ranked 21st in the NFL
2021: Ranked 29th in the NFL
2020: Ranked 23rd in the NFL
To address these persistent struggles, the Chargers implemented significant changes to their defensive roster for 2024. They turned over approximately 60% of their aggregate defensive roster, replacing their entire interior defensive line and all but one member of their back seven (Asante Samuel Jr.). This overhaul has yielded noticeable improvements.
One of the most impactful factors has been the return to health of Joey Bosa, who is finally playing a full season after battling injuries. Bosa started only 4 games in 2022 and 5 games in 2023, severely limiting the team's pass-rushing capabilities during those years.
To illustrate my point, take a look at the start difference in rosters:
2023 Defensive Starters:
Defensive Line: Sebastian Joseph-Day, Austin Johnson, Morgan Fox
Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack
Linebackers: Drue Tranquill, Kenneth Murray Jr.
Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Michael Davis
Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Nasir Adderley
2024 Defensive Starters:
Defensive Line: Morgan Fox, Poona Ford, Otito Ogbonnia
Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack
Linebackers: Denzel Perryman, Daiyan Henley
Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Tarheeb Still
Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Tony Jefferson
2024 Defensive Performance
The revamped defense has seen a dramatic turnaround:
Ranked 14th in the NFL in total yards allowed.
Ranked 1st in the NFL in points allowed.
This improvement underscores the effectiveness of the roster changes; hopefully, the same will be true for our Giants.
The Bengals are experiencing a similar paradigm this season, where their defense ranks 28th in PA and 27th in Yards Allowed. Does their poor record suggest the team failures are a result of Zac Taylor's preperformance? Should the Bengals bring in a new coach to correct the ship? I think we can both agree thier poor performance is the result of limited talent on defense, akin to the Chargers...
Interesting GM idea.....Will McClay...currently Vice President of Player Personnel for the Dallas Cowboys. We could add Mike Vrabel as Head Coach, but I was thinking we could give a black eye to the NFC East by taking Kliff Kingsbury as their next head coach?
Dallas Cowboys: Will McClay, in his 21st season working in the Cowboys Personnel Department, was named the club's assistant director of player personnel in 2013 and senior director of pro/college scouting in 2015. He was named Vice President Player Personnel in 2017, and he will continue to oversee the club's NFL Draft process and play a key role in free agent and trade acquisitions.
Commanders OC Kliff Kingsbury: has done an excellent job developing the rookie first-round pick and allowing him to find such quick and immediate success.
Throughout his coaching career, Kingsbury has been credited with the development of numerous star quarterbacks. He was the head coach of Texas Tech University during Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes's tenure at the organization. Texas Tech has him listed as "KINGSBURY, THE QUARTERBACK GURU" on their official website:
https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-giants/could-giants-steal-quarterback-guru-from-division-rival-as-next-head-coach/
https://www.dallascowboys.com/team/front-office-roster/will-mcclay
Quote from: kingm56 on December 26, 2024, 12:47:47 PMJoe,
The primary problem with the Chargers in recent years has undeniably been their defense, as reflected in their NFL rankings:
2023: Ranked 28th in the NFL
2022: Ranked 21st in the NFL
2021: Ranked 29th in the NFL
2020: Ranked 23rd in the NFL
To address these persistent struggles, the Chargers implemented significant changes to their defensive roster for 2024. They turned over approximately 60% of their aggregate defensive roster, replacing their entire interior defensive line and all but one member of their back seven (Asante Samuel Jr.). This overhaul has yielded noticeable improvements.
One of the most impactful factors has been the return to health of Joey Bosa, who is finally playing a full season after battling injuries. Bosa started only 4 games in 2022 and 5 games in 2023, severely limiting the team's pass-rushing capabilities during those years.
To illustrate my point, take a look at the start difference in rosters:
2023 Defensive Starters:
Defensive Line: Sebastian Joseph-Day, Austin Johnson, Morgan Fox
Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack
Linebackers: Drue Tranquill, Kenneth Murray Jr.
Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Michael Davis
Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Nasir Adderley
2024 Defensive Starters:
Defensive Line: Morgan Fox, Poona Ford, Otito Ogbonnia
Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack
Linebackers: Denzel Perryman, Daiyan Henley
Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Tarheeb Still
Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Tony Jefferson
2024 Defensive Performance
The revamped defense has seen a dramatic turnaround:
Ranked 14th in the NFL in total yards allowed.
Ranked 1st in the NFL in points allowed.
This improvement underscores the effectiveness of the roster changes; hopefully, the same will be true for our Giants.
The Bengals are experiencing a similar paradigm this season, where their defense ranks 28th in PA and 27th in Yards Allowed. Does their poor record suggest the team failures are a result of Zac Taylor's preperformance? Should the Bengals bring in a new coach to correct the ship? I think we can both agree thier poor performance is the result of limited talent on defense, akin to the Chargers...
So many new defensive players and great defensive coaches to teach them a new scheme and coverages and also to teach him how to play it at a high level.
Also the turnover meant coaches had to decide which players to take and which not to take. That's solid talent acquisition.
Micheal Strahan should be the GM he has the business acumen like a John Lynch
Is John Gruden a hard no?
Guy is 61. Good with QBs.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2025, 04:39:44 PMMicheal Strahan should be the GM he has the business acumen like a John Lynch
No chance the Giants pay him as much as he is making on tv.
Quote from: coggs on January 01, 2025, 04:59:06 PMNo chance the Giants pay him as much as he is making on tv.
No chance he is leaving not one but two cushy jobs on 2 different networks. He's set himself up pretty nicely in his post playing career.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 01, 2025, 06:01:51 PMNo chance he is leaving not one but two cushy jobs on 2 different networks. He's set himself up pretty nicely in his post playing career.
The NFL cant afford him
Quote from: Philosophers on January 01, 2025, 04:57:28 PMIs John Gruden a hard no?
Guy is 61. Good with QBs.
Didn't he get caught being a racist in a leak of emails and texts?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 01, 2025, 09:12:17 PMDidn't he get caught being a racist in a leak of emails and texts?
Yes.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2025, 04:39:44 PMMicheal Strahan should be the GM he has the business acumen like a John Lynch
Just because someone played football at a high level and knows how to talk, does not mean that he has the ability to manage the team, the talent, the cap limit ......,
This kind of thinking has got the team to the miserable place it's in. If it was up to me, I would commission a proven coach and GM, like Belichick to do the due diligence and search for that able and winning GM that is so needed for this team.
Quote from: GloryDays on January 02, 2025, 05:37:48 PMJust because someone played football at a high level and knows how to talk, does not mean that he has the ability to manage the team, the talent, the cap limit ......,
This kind of thinking has got the team to the miserable place it's in. If it was up to me, I would commission a proven coach and GM, like Belichick to do the due diligence and search for that able and winning GM that is so needed for this team.
I agree. Strahan has never held any NFL job other than being a player. Zero front office experience, and he hasn't been in the league in over 15 years. The idea that he could step right in and be a successful NFL GM simply because he has been a TV success since his playing days seems bizarrely far-fetched to me.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on December 23, 2024, 05:05:02 PMRay Agnew, Lions assistant general manager
Dawn Aponte, NFL's chief administrator of football operations
Mike Borgonzi, Chiefs assistant GM
Ian Cunningham, Chicago Bears assistant GM
Thomas Dimitroff, former Falcons GM
John Dorsey, Lions senior personnel executive
Ray Farmer, Rams senior personnel executive
Mike Greenberg, Buccaneers assistant GM
Mike Martin, Lions director of scouting advancement
Lance Newmark, Commanders assistant GM
Phil Savage, Jets interim general manager
John Spytek, Buccaneers assistant general manager
Nolan Teasley, Seahawks assistant general manager
Josh Williams, 49ers director of scouting and football operations
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detroit Lions OC Ben Johnson
Detroit Lions DC Aaron Glenn
Browns consultant Mike Vrabel
Vikings DC Brian Flores
Bills OC Joe Brady
Panthers DC Ejiro Evero
Bucs OC Liam Coen
Steelers OC Arthur Smith
Chargers DC Jesse Minter
Commanders OC Kliff Kingsbury
Ravens OC Todd Monken
Bears interim HC Thomas Brown
Im going to be honest with you... this may be the worst list in recent history
Besides maybe Vrable I see no reason to move on from Dabs
At least we know with dabs one more terrible year he's def gone
We fire him just to fire him and get stuck with possibly our third choice of HC in an already weak list we are now in hell for an even more extended period of time
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 01, 2025, 04:39:44 PMMicheal Strahan should be the GM he has the business acumen like a John Lynch
The "optics" would be something else, but the reality is that Michael, as far as we know from his public profile, has not advanced his formal education past his Bachelor's Degree from Texas Southern, in 1993. While the order and discipline he learned from growing up in a military family (NOTE: overseas in Germany, no less), the self-determination he exhibited to become an excellent defense end football player, a team leader and now a pop star in television, there is no question he may have picked up some of the "tools of the trade" in the world of business, and especially contracts, but it is still a considerable gap between sitting next to your hired businessman/attorney and actually being one (NOTE: not to mention a CAPABLE one!).
Now, we have to put into perspective that there are General Managers in the NFL who have business educational backgrounds with practical business experience and knowledge base/acumen to handle not just any kind of business, but that specifically geared toward the National Football League business model.
Many on this board question the business acumen of Joe Schoen, whose education consists of a Bachelor of Arts in Communications degree with experience in scouting before he was mentored in management by Brandon Beane of the Bills. Even George Young had his undergraduate degree from Bucknell, was an educator for many years and earned two graduate degrees from Johns Hopkins University and Loyola College.
But the ultimate consideration is that while Young and Schoen were groomed for a General Management role (NOTE: Young under Don Shula with Baltimore and Miami with Schoen with Beane with Buffalo). Strahan has had no practical assimilation into this type of a role and probably would not be a comfortable fit for an individual who is at his best in front of an audience with the ability to excite and entertain at a level which is arguably among the best in the business at this time.
I would recommend letting Michael be Michael and we can enjoy him biting his tongue on Fox NFL Sunday as he fights himself to not show his bias for the Giants - funny stuff!
As for the Giants and Joe Schoen, it appears he will be given the wiggle room to turn this Titanic around. Apparently, the boss doesn't believe the iceberg has been hit, just yet.
Uh, that one is a "we'll have to wait and see, fingers' crossed!"
Peace!
Here's a name to throw out there. What about Ryan Day of OSU? Been a head coach long enough to know org construction. Great offensive mind. Highly successful. Probably would leave Ohio State.
Quote from: killarich on January 02, 2025, 06:08:25 PMIm going to be honest with you... this may be the worst list in recent history
Besides maybe Vrable I see no reason to move on from Dabs
At least we know with dabs one more terrible year he's def gone
We fire him just to fire him and get stuck with possibly our third choice of HC in an already weak list we are now in hell for an even more extended period of time
I personally think Flores will be a successful head coach in his next gig, but I realize it's basically not feasible for him to be the Giants coach given the history.
I would seriously consider him if I were the Jets. He seems like exactly what they need there.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2025, 06:38:36 PMHere's a name to throw out there. What about Ryan Day of OSU? Been a head coach long enough to know org construction. Great offensive mind. Highly successful. Probably would leave Ohio State.
I'm not a huge fan of bringing in a college coach with no real NFL experience of note to be a first-time head coach. I understand day spent a year or two in the NFL as a QB coach, but never as a coordinator.
Simply put, the track record of making this type of move is downright terrible. And that includes names that were way more revered at the time of their head coaching NFL debut than Day is right now.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 02, 2025, 06:59:44 PMI'm not a huge fan of bringing in a college coach with no real NFL experience of note to be a first-time head coach. I understand day spent a year or two in the NFL as a QB coach, but never as a coordinator.
Simply put, the track record of making this type of move is downright terrible. And that includes names that were way more revered at the time of their head coaching NFL debut than Day is right now.
He seems different to me Jeff. I understand your position. Day has more of an NFL temperment. Not a dictator like many college coaches. Seems pretty professional. College and pro are as similar as ever. Maybe now the transition is different.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2025, 07:24:26 PMHe seems different to me Jeff. I understand your position. Day has more of an NFL temperment. Not a dictator like many college coaches. Seems pretty professional. College and pro are as similar as ever. Maybe now the transition is different.
I hear you Joe, and I'm not saying it never, ever works. You could well be right here and may have a great read on Day. I do like that he at least has been involved with two NFL teams. That's better than nothing.
I guess my one response to you though would be the following: are WE the franchise right now that is going to buck this trend and strike gold with a college hire? The odds just don't seem on our side. In fact, they seem pretty poor to me. I feel like our next head coach needs to be a guy with NFL head coaching experience and preferable someone who had at least some sort of success as a head coach, unlike Pat Shurmur.
In any case, this all seems moot. Daboll seems like a done deal to be staying.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2025, 06:38:36 PMHere's a name to throw out there. What about Ryan Day of OSU? Been a head coach long enough to know org construction. Great offensive mind. Highly successful. Probably would leave Ohio State.
Not a fan of bringing in the college coaches from these big programs. In the NFL, can't just recruit guys to come your team. I would have to see what he has done when he coached in a league with a little more even playing field. In the NFL, he won't get Akron or W. Michigan on their schedule. Then again, the way college football is evolving, the coaches no longer have the power over the players like guys like Saban, Spurrier, and Bowden had.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 02, 2025, 07:31:41 PMI hear you Joe, and I'm not saying it never, ever works. You could well be right here and may have a great read on Day. I do like that he at least has been involved with two NFL teams. That's better than nothing.
I guess my one response to you though would be the following: are WE the franchise right now that is going to buck this trend and strike gold with a college hire? The odds just don't seem on our side. In fact, they seem pretty poor to me. I feel like our next head coach needs to be a guy with NFL head coaching experience and preferable someone who had at least some sort of success as a head coach, unlike Pat Shurmur.
In any case, this all seems moot. Daboll seems like a done deal to be staying.
I want an ex-NFL head coach who has been successful as well but who is that?
BB - too old then went to UNC
Pete Carroll - too old
John Gruden - racist email, lawsuit against NFL.
Hot coordinators who fail seem to do so because they cant manage and oversea a larger organization than just their offensive or defensive unit. I think the hot coordinators failure list is much larger than failed college coaches. If we go this route my feeling is it has to be for someone with extensive experience coaching under one or both of the Harbaughs.
Ryan Day has run now an entire team for like 5 years. Ohio St is as close to an NFL team as you can get. College with NIL, transfer portal, etc. is almost identical to NFL unlike few years ago. Day will turnover coaching staff there are sub-performers. I think he is at least worth a consideration.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 03, 2025, 06:40:47 AMI want an ex-NFL head coach who has been successful as well but who is that?
BB - too old then went to UNC
Pete Carroll - too old
John Gruden - racist email, lawsuit against NFL.
Hot coordinators who fail seem to do so because they cant manage and oversea a larger organization than just their offensive or defensive unit. I think the hot coordinators failure list is much larger than failed college coaches. If we go this route my feeling is it has to be for someone with extensive experience coaching under one or both of the Harbaughs.
Ryan Day has run now an entire team for like 5 years. Ohio St is as close to an NFL team as you can get. College with NIL, transfer portal, etc. is almost identical to NFL unlike few years ago. Day will turnover coaching staff there are sub-performers. I think he is at least worth a consideration.
The best coach with HC experience out there is Brian Flores. But the Giants screwed the pooch on that one. No matter, they are letting the other Brian have one more year before he is shown the door.
Quote from: katkavage on January 03, 2025, 06:54:28 AMThe best coach with HC experience out there is Brian Flores. But the Giants screwed the pooch on that one. No matter, they are letting the other Brian have one more year before he is shown the door.
I dont understand all the Brian Flores love. In 3 years as HC, he was 5-11, 10-6 and 9-8. His former starting QB did not have good things to say about him, right? Worst of all, he sued the league that employs him and now wants to be elevated up to HC again. In business the rule is if you sue a former employer in an industry, your payday better be very high because you will never get a job in the industry again.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 01, 2025, 04:57:28 PMIs John Gruden a hard no?
Guy is 61. Good with QBs.
He's flamed out for many reasons, was overrated in the first place, and hasn't seen any success in many years. Also, he destroyed QBs.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 03, 2025, 07:45:58 AMI dont understand all the Brian Flores love. In 3 years as HC, he was 5-11, 10-6 and 9-8. His former starting QB did not have good things to say about him, right? Worst of all, he sued the league that employs him and now wants to be elevated up to HC again. In business the rule is if you sue a former employer in an industry, your payday better be very high because you will never get a job in the industry again.
That's a winning record with very little to work with. Because he stood up to the BS, you are right, it probably will be difficult for a team to take him. The Giants, reactionary as they are as an organization, never would.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 03, 2025, 06:40:47 AMI want an ex-NFL head coach who has been successful as well but who is that?
BB - too old then went to UNC
Pete Carroll - too old
John Gruden - racist email, lawsuit against NFL.
Hot coordinators who fail seem to do so because they cant manage and oversea a larger organization than just their offensive or defensive unit. I think the hot coordinators failure list is much larger than failed college coaches. If we go this route my feeling is it has to be for someone with extensive experience coaching under one or both of the Harbaughs.
Ryan Day has run now an entire team for like 5 years. Ohio St is as close to an NFL team as you can get. College with NIL, transfer portal, etc. is almost identical to NFL unlike few years ago. Day will turnover coaching staff there are sub-performers. I think he is at least worth a consideration.
OSU has been an elite program forever. How has Day elevated it since he took over? Meyer, his predecessor, won a national championship there. Meyer had a better win-loss record than Day has to this point.
Meyer was a catastrophic train wreck as an NFL head coach. Same goes for practically every other big name college coach with no material NFL coaching experience who tried out the NFL. Including much bigger names than Ryan Day (see Saban, Spurier, Holtz, Petrino, etc etc).
I think these college coaches are tempting but many of them, while perfectly competent, walked into great situations and sometimes that gets confused with true greatness itself on their part. Many of them are the coaching equivalent of "just a guy" who happened to get a great coaching job.
If I'm going to gamble on a college coach with no NFL head coaching or coordinating experience, I at least want someone who has significantly elevated a program. Ryan Day has not done that at OSU. He's done a perfectly respectable job overall, but the program has not had more success under his watch than it did under his predecessor. it has in fact had less. Why would I want to invest in someone who has had less success where he is than his predecessor did?
OSU is a perennial powerhouse program where anything less than a national championship is always disappointing there. There is a pretty decent chance he gets one this year, but that is not certain, and I just don't see how he has distinguished himself there relative to what they are used to in Columbus. I am not saying he has done a bad job, but I fail to see how he has stood out, either. How has he raised the bar there versus the Meyer era? Or the Tressel era?
Day would not be on my list for an NFL head coaching job, especially a team that is a total dumpster fire like ours that needs help in every corner of the organization and needs someone with hands-on NFL experience with NFL contacts who knows what he is doing and has learned the ropes of the NFL over the years? That is not Ryan Day.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 03, 2025, 03:57:55 PMOSU has been an elite program forever. How has Day elevated it he took over? Meyer, his predecessor, won a national championship there. Meyer had a better win-loss record than Day has to this point.
Meyer was a catastrophic train wreck as an NFL head coach. Same goes for practically every other big name college coach with no material NFL coaching experience who tried out the NFL. Including much bigger names than Ryan Day (see Saban, Spurier, Holtz, Petrino, etc etc).
I think these college coaches are tempting but many of them, while perfectly competent, walked into great situations and sometimes that gets confused with true greatness itself on their part. Many of them are the coaching equivalent of "just a guy" who happened to get a great coaching job.
If I'm going to gamble on a college coach with no NFL head coaching or coordinating experience, I at least want someone who has significantly elevated a program. Ryan Day has not done that at OSU. He's done a nice job overall, but the program has not had more success under his watch than it did under his predecessor. it has in fact had less. Why would we want to buy into that?
OSU is a perennial powerhouse program where anything less than a national championship is always disappointing there. I don't see how Day has distinguished himself there relative to what they are used to in Columbus. I am not saying he has done a bad job, but I fail to see how he has stood out, either. How has he raised the bar there versus the Meyer era?
Day would not be on my list for an NFL head coaching job, especially a team that is a total dumpster fire like ours that needs help in every corner of the organization.
OSU fans wanted him fired only 2 weeks ago.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 03, 2025, 03:57:55 PMOSU has been an elite program forever. How has Day elevated it since he took over? Meyer, his predecessor, won a national championship there. Meyer had a better win-loss record than Day has to this point.
Meyer was a catastrophic train wreck as an NFL head coach. Same goes for practically every other big name college coach with no material NFL coaching experience who tried out the NFL. Including much bigger names than Ryan Day (see Saban, Spurier, Holtz, Petrino, etc etc).
I think these college coaches are tempting but many of them, while perfectly competent, walked into great situations and sometimes that gets confused with true greatness itself on their part. Many of them are the coaching equivalent of "just a guy" who happened to get a great coaching job.
If I'm going to gamble on a college coach with no NFL head coaching or coordinating experience, I at least want someone who has significantly elevated a program. Ryan Day has not done that at OSU. He's done a perfectly respectable job overall, but the program has not had more success under his watch than it did under his predecessor. it has in fact had less. Why would I want to invest in someone who has had less success where he is than his predecessor did?
OSU is a perennial powerhouse program where anything less than a national championship is always disappointing there. There is a pretty decent chance he gets one this year, but that is not certain, and I just don't see how he has distinguished himself there relative to what they are used to in Columbus. I am not saying he has done a bad job, but I fail to see how he has stood out, either. How has he raised the bar there versus the Meyer era? Or the Tressel era?
Day would not be on my list for an NFL head coaching job, especially a team that is a total dumpster fire like ours that needs help in every corner of the organization and needs someone with hands-on NFL experience with NFL contacts who knows what he is doing and has learned the ropes of the NFL over the years? That is not Ryan Day.
You are 100% right that he has not built up a program but only continued its excellence. Good point.
Looks and feels like the Giants will stay status quo with Daboll and Shoen.......ugh , but I don't think Mara will shake things up this year if only for not starting completely over again and hoping the two have a plan that will improve the team.. ??
however, if a Daboll led team comes out of the gate next year and completely flops like they have for the past two years....then what ??? and if the downward trend of poor offensive play and low scoring continues..then what ? what if next year quickly becomes another lost year for season ticket holders , paying premium dollars ,by the way...and Giant fans everywhere looking at the following years draft by Thanksgiving or sooner again....Then what ?
If they do stay there needs to be changes in staff and coaching ranks of the team. and a new culture developed soon. ...not sure how this will happen ...but as a longtime ....over 50 plus year fan .... something needs to change soon because if they don't ... the ole Forest Gump saying " stupid is as Stupid does " will haunt this team for another four to five years. and the Giants will continue to be the laughing stock of the league.
Quote from: Woody on January 05, 2025, 09:14:43 AMLooks and feels like the Giants will stay status quo with Daboll and Shoen.......ugh , but I don't think Mara will shake things up this year if only for not starting completely over again and hoping the two have a plan that will improve the team.. ??
however, if a Daboll led team comes out of the gate next year and completely flops like they have for the past two years....then what ??? and if the downward trend of poor offensive play and low scoring continues..then what ? what if next year quickly becomes another lost year for season ticket holders , paying premium dollars ,by the way...and Giant fans everywhere looking at the following years draft by Thanksgiving or sooner again....Then what ?
If they do stay there needs to be changes in staff and coaching ranks of the team. and a new culture developed soon. ...not sure how this will happen ...but as a longtime ....over 50 plus year fan .... something needs to change soon because if they don't ... the ole Forest Gump saying "Stupid is as Stupid does " will haunt this team for another four to five years. and the Giants will continue to be the laughing stock of the league.
I think everyone, including John Mara, realizes this. But there is no silver bullet "quick fix" for this team. The talent has fallen below NFL average and is at the bottom of the NFC East. The team has a perpetual injury issue which significantly impacts their ability to compete. The team has neither a sufficient quarterback nor offensive line to score points consistently. The defense plays heroicly but inevitably succumbs in the final quarter. For two years in succession, they have played "musical kickers" and, this year, "musical punters," as well. So, as you can see, there is no quick fix to be had here.
In the end, we all know that "competition" in the pre-season is the only way to get these players out there fighting for their jobs and being their very best. Why that has become taboo is beyond me.
This organization would do its fanbase a world of good by acknowledging the above and setting expectations that are reasonable with where they are now and where they want to be in one year, two years, etc., and what that "plan" looks like. I think the fans would be frustrated with another struggling campaign in 2025; however, if the "plan" is actually being executed and goals are being achieved, even partially, that is something I think would be better than this "hope springs eternal" in the summer, only to have the team get its a$$ kicked on opening day.
If they're going to draft a QB, then they damned well had better do everything in their power to make that O-Line their next immediate priority.
If they wait until 2026 to get their franchise QB, then fix the critical holes in the O-Line in this draft, and put the finishing touches on it in '26 when they get their guy.
Same goes with the defense. CB, DT, Edge.
Maybe it is time to give McAtamney a real chance to dethrone Gano in next year's training camp. Maybe sign McAtamney's buddy who now punts in the CFL, the Aussie Rules guy also from Rutgers, Adam Korsak, to give the Scottish Hammer a go.
Until the holes are filled, and incumbent are challenged by young, hungry kids with higher upsides, very little is going to change.
Medical must continue to get smarter at what they do to mitigate instances of injury on the field.
So many different aspects of the players, coaches, departments, management and the front office where all of them can improve individually and collectively.
I guess we'll see what happens. But there's no one silver bullet that's going to fix this entire organization. Communicate the plan, shop owner, John! Communicate!
Peace!
I will always be of the belief that it isn't just "all about the QB" as several here still believe. The other 21 players, coaches and a variety of other factors all contribute to Ws and Ls.
I find Daboll's comments deflecting this disastrous season onto the players, specifically the QB troubling. He's essentially saying "I'm not the problem, the players are (specifically the QB). I want a coach to stand up and say "wins and losses are on me". To the best of my knowledge, we've never heard that.
I think any Head Coach would be an improvement over this guy
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The Iundisciplined Daboll team strikes again
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Did I say undisciplined? Team
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Just like Jones was given excuses for his lack of production that really hid his deficiencies now Daboll can't lean on the excuse of not having a QB to mask his serious flaws.
No way Daboll is going anywhere ...after just watching him in post game presser. He was almost giddy and did not look like a guy worried about his job.
Both are staying ...I would absolutely be shocked if they or one or the other are let go.
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Quote from: Woody on January 05, 2025, 04:27:31 PMNo way Daboll is going anywhere ...after just watching him in post game presser. He was almost giddy and did not look like a guy worried about his job.
Both are staying ...I would absolutely be shocked if they or one or the other are let go.
Indeed. Resting on his laurels.
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If what should happen happens and Cain & Abel are shown the door, what is the feeling about Ray Agnew? Served with Holmes in LAR and Detroit and both organizations have demonstrated an eye for talent. God knows we need people who can identify good football players
Quote from: Woody on January 05, 2025, 04:27:31 PMNo way Daboll is going anywhere ...after just watching him in post game presser. He was almost giddy and did not look like a guy worried about his job.
Both are staying ...I would absolutely be shocked if they or one or the other are let go.
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If Daboll is retained, and I hope he is not , it has to come with the provion that he hires an OC who will call the plays. Daboll cannot call plays next year.
Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 07:44:33 PMTBD on Daboll. Give him a real QB before sealing his fate.
And to be fair, Daboll wanted to draft Jayden Daniels. He was not wrong.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 06, 2025, 04:53:46 AMAnd to be fair, Daboll wanted to draft Jayden Daniels. He was not wrong.
That was a no brainer.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 06, 2025, 04:53:46 AMAnd to be fair, Daboll wanted to draft Jayden Daniels. He was not wrong.
And McAdoo begged Reese to trade up and get Mahomes. Him being "right" hasnt helped him.
Quote from: coggs on January 06, 2025, 07:51:37 AMAnd McAdoo begged Reese to trade up and get Mahomes. Him being "right" hasnt helped him.
But when people say he can't see QB talent (Jones, Lock, DeVito) maybe they were here BECAUSE they lacked talent and weren't who Daboll wanted.
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on January 05, 2025, 11:37:09 PMIf what should happen happens and Cain & Abel are shown the door, what is the feeling about Ray Agnew? Served with Holmes in LAR and Detroit and both organizations have demonstrated an eye for talent. God knows we need people who can identify good football players
That name sounds familiar. Wasn't he a player on Defense in the nineties that was called GAGnew? Also played for the Patriots.
Quote from: katkavage on January 06, 2025, 05:14:34 AMThat was a no brainer.
Yeah, now it is. Nobody knew the impact Daniels would've had when he was drafted.
Quote from: T200 on January 06, 2025, 09:30:04 AMBut when people say he can't see QB talent (Jones, Lock, DeVito) maybe they were here BECAUSE they lacked talent and weren't who Daboll wanted.
Give Daboll the QB he wants and see what happens thereafter.
Btw, Eric Bieniemy is available, too. Just saying...
Forget Black Monday and the rest of media cockadoodle, two things should be obvious to all but the most newbie Giants fan.
1) Never in the 100-year history of the Mara Giants have the wants, needs, and wishes of its fans had an impact or moved the decision needle in the slightest way.
2) There will be no change in GM or HC in 2025. I could tell you why I am so sure, and whether or not I concur but given 1) why would I bother?
Of course, if second-guessing before and after the fact gives you a sense of relevance, have fun.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on January 06, 2025, 12:09:57 PM1) Never in the 100-year history of the Mara Giants have the wants, needs, and wishes of its fans had an impact or moved the decision needle in the slightest way.
The mid-season firing of Reese and McAdoo appeared to be directly related to fan outrage (fanned by the media and the Mannings) over Eli being benched for Geno Smith.